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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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 Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:48 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Sheep-GoatsHave you ever taught somewhere where you didn't care for the culture or the attitude of the people you were teaching? It makes a difference.
I care for the culture and people I teach, but many people wanting to teach here also make a big deal about how much they love Japanese culture, Japanese food, anime, they love the Japanese people based on stereotypes, the odd person they have met, (as though that person embodies the Japanese character or personality of a whole nation), somehow qualifies them as a teacher more so than some one who is not so enamored. (where do you get the idea Japanese are generous?) Often the more you consider yourself a Japanophile, the harder the fall can be when you come here and you see your bubble burst and Japan is not what you cracked it up to be. Its almost as if 'Well Im more into Japanese culture than you so i deserve to come here more than you'
Good writing also takes work, and is not for publishing on internet forums where I'm simply trying to explain to sceptical people that, no, really, I do want to go to Japan and teach. Furthermore, a sonnet has ten syllables and generally 12 lines (but at least  . A haiku is 5-7-5 and, obviously, three lines. You can waggle on all you want about writing and checking spelling on the interent, but if you're going to make mistakes while critizing mistakes I made in the name of expediency and for the sake of explaing myself (where really no one ought to have to), it takes some legitimacy out of your own claims, sirrah.
I will simply try to say that I have trouble understanding what you are trying to say, your writing went of into longwinded irrelevant philosophical tangents about the traditional history of universities.
How can you seem to explain to people your viewpoint when your writing is not at all clear?
Yes, as I said I was going to, and there's nothing wrong, as far as I know, with "giving every ... rationale". And I mentioned the salary thing. And I never said EFL was beneath me, I said it wasn't of itself an interest of mine.
Maybe not but its what you will spend a lot of time doing here - 40-60 hours a week in fact. Many people work many years here dont enjoy teaching or their jobs that much but justify their existence by the money they make.
Teaching kids is EFL
Teaching at NOVA is EFL
Teaching at a university is EFL
What you do now is EFL, except the local is different.
I can't imagine that there could be such a student in Japan. Could you?
Cant speak for you (and I have just had a meeting with the school vice-president to discuss student attitudes) but students will study if they have a good teacher, they are interested in the lesson, and most importantly, they feel they can get a passing grade by attending your class. I dont think there is much intrinsic interest for students to study Robert Frost or Faulkner as 1. the language and imagery is usually beyond them as the language used is in a foreign language. To teach poetry you would be most effective teaching it in Japanese for studnets to get full benefit of the poem. Anyway, ask the average university student here and and many dont know why they study English, except because they have to. Many will take the path of least resistance, the teacher who is the softest marker. If they dont like your lesson they will walk with their feet.
Most Japanese dont need to learn how write essays inEnglish or learn creative writing. What we help them to do is help them to express themsleves better and clean up the mess they are left with when they finish high school.
Same story with my Thai students. However, it's also true that some of my students are very interested in how to write essays -- unfortunatly none of them have a level of English where we can start on that
I have students who like writing as well, but most universities the composition class makes up a small percentage of the teaching load. 80-90% will be communication/oral type courses with large numbers of students in one class.
[/quote]
I don't know why everyone's decided to start getting nasty. Let me put the next part in bold, so that I don't have to type it in this thread ever again:
GOOD WRITING IS NOT FOR THE INTERNET. .[/quote]
No need to write a novel (which you obviously spent some time over) then to show how erudite and and rich in expression you are. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Sheep-Goats,
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| I value generous vacation time and days with a lot of hours free more than I value a generous salary. What this means is that I'm not well suited to a language school, and would prefer to stay in the univeristy environment |
If you want a university job for this reason, then do what it takes to get it. Done deal. Paul has given you a lot of wisdom in his earlier posts to do that.
On a personal note, if all you want to do is come here and have lots of free time off while collecting a paycheck, you don't sound very serious about work. That attitude will show in an interview. Beware.
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| I'm interested in writing. If I could chisel out enough for a shoebox and food in a city of any passing level of interest (so, say, Austin might make the cut but Iowa City isn't going to cut it) I would do that. But right now I'm mostly interested in poetry... |
You can't make a living on that in Japan. Work for it.
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| The truth is that I need to secure a backup set of bulletproof employability in some field |
Don't we all? As I wrote above, get the qualifications first and hope for the best.
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| It's no small secret among writers that the university is your greatest hope for shelter and sustience -- 1000 years ago it was the patronage of a king or consul, now that patronage system has been re-reified into what we have, more or less world-wide now, as the education cult. |
We may be talking about different writers, but the ones that I know (personally) do not work at universities. They have PT jobs or FT jobs elsewhere and eke out their living by writing at night. Asimov taught biochemistry and lectured while he wrote. It really sounds like you have an antiquated view of the writing world.
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| I'm more of a happy little monkey surrounded by university type people. ... in the staffroom of the vastly underqualified [place where] I currently work in, if I want to, I can just pick someone out and argue about wether education should be compulsory, or if it's a good thing on moral grounds to tell students their grades, or whatever. |
I don't work at a Japanese university, but I'm willing to bet you can find similar people to discuss such things, but I'm also willing to bet that most of the foreign teachers are simply more interested in maintaining their publications list (tied to their salaries) and to getting home to leave work behind. Anyone? Moreover, university types in Japan are not the same as those back home in Iowa City.
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| Now, why Japan, and why EFL? Well, as I said, EFL is, quite admittedly, the backup zone for me -- but that in all probability, the majority of my teaching life will be there. This is mainly for two reasons, 1) writing positions are hard to get |
Yup, they sure are! And, as I wrote before, you can't live off them most of the time. They will be your midnight or holiday chores when you finish with grading assignments and making tests for your university students.
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| and 2) there are obvious moral and therefore some artisitc problems with being employed by an institution for the sake of your art alone. |
I'll admit to being thick-headed about this. What are you talking about? And, just who do you know these days that DOES get hired for that? With an economic recession in Japan, people with jobs that have been held for decades are getting the boot, so to get hired because one can write (is this your art?) is not exactly high on the list of demand.
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| Dave Hickey wrote some excellent essays on this (and other things), but to be brief, universities are a different structure than patronage as they care quite passionatly about what your work means (whereas patronage is more concerned about what your work, ah, looks like -- it doesn't dig too deep). This obviously puts pressure on you to keep your poetry in-line with the mission of your employer(s) |
Who hires people to write poetry these days? And, I think Paul has already explained that if you get a university job in Japan, your employer will be concerned only with you teaching EFL anyway.
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| So, it's perhaps best for me to keep my work and my secret hidden work seperate -- like the Spiderman movies |
I hope you aren't making yourself out to be a superhero. Work at the university teaching EFL, and do whatever it takes to do your writing, but you will find yourself doing it on the side (as I indicated above).
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| Why EFL? Well, because EFL offers the lions share of chances at variety as a teacher. Any other teaching profession almost miraculosly ties you to one or two places, in the end, if you have concerns beyond yourself |
You're losing me here again. You are never tied to anything. You always have the option of upping stakes and leaving. What do you mean that any teaching profession (other than EFL) ties one down?
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| why Japan? Well, having never been there and seeing as those working in Japan always seem to doubt that anyone could be as truly devoted to Japaneseness as they are (just as the anime dorks in America feel), |
Nonsense! Where did you ever get the notion that any of us have such odd notions of being devoted to "Japaneseness"??? Oh, and PLEASE do not compare us serious people with anime freaks, especially those who have never even set foot in Japan.
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| in my dealings with Japanese people I've found them to be generous... honest |
Yeah, sure. Many are. But, what exactly have your dealings with Japanese people been? There are plenty of unscrupulous types here. Ever hear of honne and tatemae, too? Perhaps what you have experienced is not what was reality.
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| Ideally, I'd like to work in the most rarefied and final of academic environments |
What exactly do you think is so rarified about Japanese university jobs? Where did you get that impression? You teach EFL. You get side jobs. You have vacations (which is about the only time you get to see your family). That's about it. People scramble for their jobs when the 3-year contract runs out, they don't sit around discussing haikus.
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| But if the work, pay and especially benefits themselves are good, I would be satisfied with a much more "grunt-level" teaching posistion -- which, if it was at a university (in Americanese that means at least 18 to 22 year olds pursuing a BA), would never be considered "grunt-level" even in my mind of minds. |
You're 24 and think that someone will hire you in the USA to teach a handful of university classes and pay you an enormous salary and give you enormous amounts of time off. Lofty and unreachable thoughts. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| Sheep-Goats wrote: |
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Well, if that were the only result of my efforts, then no, it's probably not. But getting a MA in TESOL might qualify me for better money anywhere anyway, and the experience itself wouldn't be a negative one.
Also, if I'm qualified for Japan I'm qualified for probably 98% of the other jobs out there that I'd be interested in. I see the pursuit of a Japanese teaching posistion as a small end of itself, yes, but if things don't work out I can slide fairly easily into something else (or somewhere else) from there -- whereas if I make my goal earning big money in Thailand (or whatever) there's much less room for a change of direction later, should that be necessary or desireable.
It's long term and flexible kind of plan I'm trying to make, I mean. |
Well if you get a Masters in TESOL you will be well on way to getting a halfway decent position here, as I pointed out at the beginning of this exchange. Aguy with an MFA and interest in poetry will likely go to bottom of the short list as he does not offer anything the school really wants and needs
Universities here require TEFL trained language teachers, with skills in CALL, Testing, education, computers, and Linguistics.
With an MA in TEFL you could get better jobs in Saudia Arabia Australia or wherever you can get a visa to work. The only problem as I see it, in your second post you said you wanted a Masters degree as cheaply and painlessly as possible, and in my view that is living in fairy-land. It aint gonna happen. A Temple degree for example, where most college teachers get their degrees these days (the other is Columbia) costs 2 million yen over 2.5 years. Columbia costs 2.5 million yen for a 3 year course. That is on top of working 3 years full time at a conversation school or part time somewhere at a college. i know because I did it. I have a full time job, wife and kids and Im now working on my 3rd degree.
I really dont see how you can consider making this work unless you think seriously about how you are going to make it happen and how you are going to afford it. A cheaper option is a distance MA in TESOL from an Australian University but as a foreign student you are looking at $AUS 20,000 over 2 years or about 1.6 million yen not including travel to Australia for residency requirements for many places.
Rather than bemoan the fact you wont be able to teach poetry or writing (which you wont get hired for nor can you live on anyway) it might be time to join the real world, bite the bullet financially and put your money where your mouth is, and start planning what you are going to have to give up to make it happen. I have done it, you can to if you are serious about earning the yen, creatinga bulletproof career for yourself. I know of no other way except spending wads of cash on a degree that employers demand and require from foreign teachers, and having what employers request on the job specs.
get the pieces of paper first and then you can daydream about all the teaching opportunities that will come your way. |
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Sheep-Goats
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| You're 24 and think that someone will hire you in the USA to teach a handful of university classes and pay you an enormous salary and give you enormous amounts of time off. Lofty and unreachable thoughts. |
I'm 24 now. After one masters and perhaps another year of teaching I'd be about 27 or 28, and if I get two masters in a row (very financially possible) I'd be 30. Which, as I'm lead to believe, is prime hiring age in Japan. Currently I'm not interested in teaching in America, unless, perhaps, it's in my primary area of interest -- if for no other reason then because those doing ESL in America don't get the rewards they would get for doing EFL.
A few other points: As a MA TESOL would be primarly a work-based (technical) degree, the reason I asked if there were an easy route to get one is, in fact, because it makes sense. Paul got his by distance learning (which, where I'm from, carries as shady a reputation as, say, teaching at a Bangkok university does in Japan), I may get mine in residence. If there's a way for me to get the degree while working in Japan and sharpening my contacts and language skills (and general TEFL employability in and out of the country) and I didn't take that, it would be foolish.
I understand that doing an MA takes work -- the undergraduate college I went to in America has the highest per-capita rate of people going on to get graduate degrees of ANY liberal arts institution in America, and, as such, I come from a going-to-grad-school background. (Furthermore, many of my fellow BA graduates have told me that their undergrad education was more taxing than their graduate one.) I'm not afraid of work, but if the work doesn't have to be spent on the MA then it can be spent elsewhere -- which means I get the job I want anyway, but much sooner. My question (about easier and harder ways to get a MA TESOL) was an attempt to save time, not effort.
Lastly, as my motivation to get a univeristy job is an attempt to sustain myself or my dependents while I write, the least helpful and most off topic suggestion anyone can issue in this thread would be for me to just forget about the writing thing and plunge myself neck-deep into careerism.
Thanks, everyone, however, for all the help. I hope the job situation picks up soon, and is booming again in 5 years time... |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:47 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Sheep-Goats"]
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Y
A few other points: As a MA TESOL would be primarly a work-based (technical) degree, the reason I asked if there were an easy route to get one is, in fact, because it makes sense. Paul got his by distance learning (which, where I'm from, carries as shady a reputation as, say, teaching at a Bangkok university does in Japan),. |
Correction
Temple University is NOT distance.Nor is Coplumbia University in Tokyo TUJ have 3 branch campuses in Japan with classrooms, libraries and full time professors. I attended all my lectures in house in front of a TUJ professor.
My PHd program meanwhile is purely research, no lectures, and done by correspondence/ email. I still have to do the research, write the dissertation and send updates and keep in touch with my supervisor. Birmingham is an accredited recognised university in the UK and its degrees are recognised all over the world, including the US. Nowhere does it say on the diploma "distance degree". |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Sheep-Goats wrote: |
I'm 24 now. After one masters and perhaps another year of teaching I'd be about 27 or 28, and if I get two masters in a row (very financially possible) I'd be 30. Which, as I'm lead to believe, is prime hiring age in Japan.
I'm not sure what you mean by prime hiring age- the average age of conversation school teachers is 27 or 28, most part time university teachers are in their mid-early 30's. Full time you have people up to retirement age. The peak for full time jobs is mid-late 30;s and many universities seek younger people with PhDs becuase they are cheaper to hire.
Currently I'm not interested in teaching in America, unless, perhaps, it's in my primary area of interest -- if for no other reason then because those doing ESL in America don't get the rewards they would get for doing EFL.
ESL and EFl are essentially the same thing- only location is different. I know people teaching English in the US but most work is part time and at several schools. Obviously the pay is not as great, but you are in your own country, surrounded by your own language and culture and you have Saturday night football and none of Japanese high prices and ingrained discrimination to deal with. Anyway, with only a year of experience under your belt you wouldnt be worth a lot to employers back home.
A few other points: As a MA TESOL would be primarly a work-based (technical) degree, the reason I asked if there were an easy route to get one is, in fact, because it makes sense.
I think the work is vocational, not technical. MA is mainly theory and textbook learning with some practical teaching thrown in. Its not like pulling apart a car engine or flaming a sorbet.[/b
Paul got his by distance learning (which, where I'm from, carries as shady a reputation as, say, teaching at a Bangkok university does in Japan),
[b]No I didnt, I got it on campus in Japan. I also forgo tot mention my temple degree was recognised by a national university and my current employer, a private university. They know about my other degree project too.
I may get mine in residence. If there's a way for me to get the degree while working in Japan Temple or Columbia is your only choice or about 10 or so distance learning degrees from recognised overseas universities- not diploma mills and sharpening my contacts and language skills (and general TEFL employability in and out of the country) and I didn't take that, it would be foolish.
work forty hours a week at a strenuous full time job at a language school or a company, do your housework and chores, shopping. 3-6 hours a week of part time lectures at Temple etc plus 5-10 hours a week or more of written assignments and reading. 300-500 hours a year (1-2 hours solid kanji study a day, 600-800 to reach Level 2 of the JLPT) to reach low-intermediate proficiency in Japanese. Find the time to attend conferences, meet people who can help you get those jobs you are after. Makes me tired just thinking about it.
I understand that doing an MA takes work -- the undergraduate college I went to in America has the highest per-capita rate of people going on to get graduate degrees of ANY liberal arts institution in America, and, as such, I come from a going-to-grad-school background. (Furthermore, many of my fellow BA graduates have told me that their undergrad education was more taxing than their graduate one.) I'm not afraid of work, but if the work doesn't have to be spent on the MA then it can be spent elsewhere -- which means I get the job I want anyway, but much sooner. My question (about easier and harder ways to get a MA TESOL) was an attempt to save time, not effort.
You wont be a student any more, living at home. With a full time job as well, trying to study and survive, cope with a different language and culture I assure you you will be very busy when you get here.
Lastly, as my motivation to get a univeristy job is an attempt to sustain myself or my dependents while I write, the least helpful and most off topic suggestion anyone can issue in this thread would be for me to just forget about the writing thing and plunge myself neck-deep into careerism.
You can do what you like with the writing. Just dont expect to have the time to do any, nor expect anyone to pay you for your writing skills, give you a writing job that pays well, or show any degree of interest in what you are doing. With learning japanese and doing a graduate degree the only time you have for writing will be 2.30 in the morning.
Thanks, everyone, however, for all the help. I hope the job situation picks up soon, and is booming again in 5 years time...
Im not holding my breath- Ill probably be out of here by then.
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Sheep-Goats wrote: |
T
1) If I were to get a MA TESOL after my MFA (I feel obligated to do my MFA first, to keep the train on the track, as it were...), do you have any reccomendations about where to do it? Does the graduating institution matter much in the eyes of an employer? If it doesn't, do you have any reccomendations on the relatively least "painful" way to get this set of letters attached offically and wholeheartedly to my name?
. |
seeing as Thailand is not a native English speaking country a degree from there would likely not be recognised here. So your choice is
1. go back to the US and do a degree and come back when you have your MEd or MA from there. Japn will still be here when you finish.
2. do a distance degree with an Australian university as they are cheaper than doing a degree and Temple or Columbia. Australian degrees are recognised here- even done by distance from thailand.
3. Come to Japan and get a job in alanguage school. Expect to spend 3-4 years juggling work and doing Temple classes. You probably wont have the time or money for sightseeing socialising and studying Japanese. One 3 credit course at Temple is 200,000 yen or about $US1900 a pop. 30 credits in all to complete your degree. Working at NOVA will leave you little free time for anything else but work and study. Make that your goal. Temple took me 3.5 years working part time.
4. Join JALT and ETJ and start networking. You wont meet uni teachers or people doing hiring while working at NOVA. You meet them at JALT conferences, chapter meetings and working part time at universities. Jobs are posted at Temple and Columbia campuses but you are competing with 50 other people for each job. Jobs here are about who you know, not what you know.
5.Learn Japanese well enough that you can ferret out the diamonds in the rough and that ask for Japanese ability. My current job the Japanese professors speak English but virtually ALL administration and correspondence, meetings are in Japanese ONLY. It took me 2-3 years of constant and regular study to reach the level i am now. (Level 2 of the JLPT and about 800 Kanji under my belt)
5. Learn how to write for publications. I mentioned this before, but schools require them for full time jobs and you may as well get in the habit now. They probably dont ask for them in Thailand but they sure do here. |
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shmooj
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1758
Location: Seoul, ROK
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:29 am Post subject: |
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Sheep-Goats,
Are you still counting? How many errors was that again? 
FYI, MAs from US unis and those from UK unis are different kettles of fish. You were right that 'where you come from' distance MAs are shady. Thankfully, the world does not come from where you do.
Writers write... |
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