Job Discussion Forums

[sharter]

Just seen an ad on another website for a job in Kyiw......the potential employer, the Aachen Institute has a also posted a cost of living guide. I thought Poznan in Poland was bad but Ukraine seems even worse. I want to meet these Poles and Ukrainians who can afford these prices. With a couple of exceptions, every Pole I know in Poland lives hand-to-mouth. Who can afford these prices? It can't be sustainable......

Every time I go to Poland I'm mystified as to how people who earn 3,000Zl a month can go out, go on holidays and look so good....(before they're 40). The footy in 2012 will make things even worse....as prices in the host cities get ramped up to rape levels.

[spiral78]

I speculate that it's because they live in housing that is still basically government-subsidised and are paying miniscule rents. It's still this way for some (lucky) Czechs, and I guess Poles are the same.....

true, Polish experts?

[citizen X]

[Sgt Bilko]

Because they can live on rosoł which is basically stock with some noodles in it. Root vegetables, a turkey neck and some bones boiled up for hours.

[PierogiMonster]

And don't forget that there are often two or three generations of Poles living in the same rambling old flat, which was either built / bought / borrowed by Great Uncle Jasiek during the Second Republic (hence no mortgage payments for anyone) or has been the subject of a long-running legal case stretching back to 1990 and involves fifteen members of several loosely-connected, non-communicative family members, the Catholic Church and possibly a company in America, one of whose members submitted his share of the building during a bankruptcy case in Chicago in the 1990s: it's not gonna get sorted anytime soon, not if the lawyers have anything to do with it.

[hrvatski]

I think loans are one explanation. I've noticed people taking loans for holidays, clothes, electronics... stuff which you generally buy outright in richer countries. I've seen people take loans to pay off other loans which are paying off other loans.

There are other factors involved, but I think loans play a part.

[sharter]

I don't think it's sustainable. What's happened in Poland smacks of politics big time. Liberalised the credit market, people got mortgages in Swiss Francs and Zloty, opened the housing market to foreign investors, created a housing boom, which made everyone think they were rich and making money, people borrowed on the equity. What happens when the housing markets crash? It will happen like in the UK and everyone's screwed except the banks, who now have loads of assets. Meanwhile people realize they ain't richer and they can't move but they've got tonnes of debt. Vested interests have made loads of dosh in Poland. It has been the same in Romania and Bulgaria. I work with loads of Eastern/Central Europeans out here in the oil field and they're all shrugging and asking how their kids are gonna have anything.

[nickienines]

They don't spend as much on fat food, eating out and junk. They also know how to stretchy a zloty.

[sharter]

Crap food is about the only thing that's cheap in Poland. Hamburgers, kebabs, pizzas etc are much more widespread now than they were in the mid 90's, so that's a bit of a controversial statement.

Poles know how to stretch a Zloty? Not if you're paying they don't-it's more a question of 'kombinowanie', an option you won't have.

[Blasphemer]

I find it cheaper to actually cook home meals... not to mention healthier and better tasting. Two cheeseburgers and a mid. fry is over 10zl... 10zl gets me - 1kg of plums, 2 peaches, 2 apples, 2 pears and a water. If I want to cook dinner, 10zl will definitely get me a nice one...
I've never really been into crap food, so cooking at home is something that I've been accustomed to prior to my arrival... this is what Poles are used to as well, especially the old generation.
I'm surprised to see so many on this forum being completely stunned by the way Uni. students in Poland survive... haven't you been to College where cold pizza is the standard food group for breakfast, lunch and dinner?
If you look at prices of McFood groups in the states, well, you have the dollar menu... and let's not talk about the KFCs.. no no.. the Kennedy Fried Chickens located in most large cities nationwide where for a measly $3 you can get a chicken leg which size resembles something straight out of a Chernobyl Polaroid, a biscuit containing most of the Mendeleev's table, mashed potatoes and a large soda... On the other hand, if you'd like to eat healthy in the states... well, it becomes way too expensive for most folk. The situation here is reversed, unfortunately this situation will also change pretty soon. Has anyone noticed the Monsanto building in Warsaw?

[justflyingin]

I agree with all of the above. There are several ways they can do it.

1. No mortgage for the above mentioned reasons (a whole bunch of em). Whole families living in the same room that son grew up in. When he got married and had two kids, they all live in the same bedroom. Many are living in gov't subsidized housing and only paying a percentage of what it would be for you and me.

2. They have very few clothes. I sat behind a guy at church who wore the same sweater almost all winter (on Sundays). He seemed to own two sweaters. They don't have room for more.

3. They walk a lot. They aren't nearly as concerned with productivity and time as people who have cars. They can't be since it takes longer to get somewhere by foot/bus (usually--at least where I live it does--probably not true in downtown Warsaw).

4. They shop at Biedronka. That place is ALWAYS busy.

5. About 1/3 of the people I've met get some sort of gov't assistance--i.e. Renta from ZUS or from the Spoleczny. For example, they have a kid who had a problem at birth, has been diagnosed with an emotional problem, etc. They get some money for that. (It's not enough to live on, by any means, but it's something--500-700/mo.)

6. Sometimes they actually receive a lot more than they report officially. For example, we knew a guy who worked for a gas station and it was reported that he made 1200 zl/mo. (years ago). He actually got probably twice that in his hand. In the summer time, probably half of the workers in the building industry are not "officially working" and thus would say that they make 0. (It's not recorded so it's not income.) The truth is, they make a regular wage.

7. Some of them have friends/relatives in the states who give them money. Some of them have a room, apt. or garage that is rented out to provide additional income.

Many do not make a lot. They live "carefully." That is why I think 40 zl/hour is enough--esp. for just conversation.

But, at that, for being poor, they spend a lot of money on convenience foods--individual yogurts, serek waniliowy for their kiddoes and they almost always have money in their pocket. It was a different way of living than I was used to. They snack a lot and need money in their pocket (bus fare, toilet charges--old town, downtown, etc.).

One Polish lady told me years ago (her words) "Polish people like to complain" and she went on to say, "When they tell you their income, they always tell you their lowest paying job/source of income and fail to tell you that they may have 2 or 3 sources of income". Those were words from a Polish "babcia".

Today I was at a home and they told me the postmen have dual incomes.One is the regular income they get from the gov't. The other is when they deliver money, the people who get the money always give him back 2 or 5 zl (or even 10) just for delivering the money. If he has 10 of these types of deliveries a day (which would not at all be unreasonable), he is making a tidy sum extra per day--all of course, tax free, and all of course, "not income", so it doesn't skew any averages. They told me that all the postmen do this. For example, if they owe the person who gets the rental 105 zl, he tells the person he doesn't have exact change. The receiver of the renta then says, "Just keep it". The postman just got 5 zl. It happens regularly.

[Jack Walker]

All the younger crowd (under 35ish), seem to have a flat or two which are being renovated so that they can move in after Christmas or something like that.

Many seem to have gotten these flats from deceased grandparents or bachelor uncles.It is a very common trend in Poland.

They've all got their little piece of real estate tucked away somewhere,even if it's just a little (Dziekowy...sp) small cottage farm thing, which can easily be sold for 35,000zl.

They aren't as poor and as downtrodden as they pretend to be.The hidden income thing is big over there as someone previously alluded to.

One of my friends works as an auditor at the good ol "urzad skarbowy" and she told me they regularly get into physical/verbal altercations with shifty Poles who get angry when questioned about how they can have a new luxury car and a new house with virtually no official income.It's very common there.Security has to be called and everything.

[justflyingin]

[Jack Walker]

[NilSatis82]

Well, according to this survey the average household income in Poland is a whopping �34,433!

http://www.uswitch.com/news/money/uk-worst-place-to-live-in-europe-uswitch-quality-of-life-index-890419/

Not sure where all these rich Poles are because I haven't come across too many! Something tells me they've got their figures a bit muddled up. I know taxes in Sweden are high, but seriously, they can't be poorer off than the average Pole.