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ginjoshu
Joined: 13 Sep 2010
Posts: 24
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 Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:11 am Post subject: |
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Is Japan "still worth it?" I worked there for 4 and a half years and am heading back in 2 weeks to work again. I was away for 2 years, though I did visit for a while after a year away.
I believe only an individual can answer for themselves if it's "worth it" based on what they want out of life.  |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:43 am Post subject: |
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seklarwia posted
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| Apart from the superior level of hygiene, foreigners don't get arrested here for mentioning anything negative to the citizens about, for example, Taiwan or anything that might be seen as an attempt to corrupt them. |
Sounds like a reference to China.
F
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| oreigners don't get rounded up and interrogated by the police and immigration as the country tries to shake its negative image to other countries before big events. |
Well, depends on the nationality. Chinese, Brazilians, and Pakistanis sometimes don't fare so well. They did overly worry about foreign football hooligans before the World Cup here in 2002, though it turned out more damage was done by domestic ones.
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| Foreigners don't get egged in the street because they are from a country that the government and thus the people have decided to hate that day. And even if you are not from a nation currently being hated on, you can still incur the wrath of the people merely be association (being seen with the wrong people or at the wrong stores). Let's not forget that not every shop keeper becomes an opportunistic criminal as soon as they see a foreign face here. |
That is true for the most part, though sometimes lunch specials are not mentioned at restaurants no are special discounts aways given.
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| These are just a few things from one country, but these issues and many others are faced by foreigners within many countries. In comparison, Japan sounds (and for me, is) better than some of the other ESL hot spots out there. |
I would say overall living here is not so difficult from a safety point of view, but it certainly is no paradise. Every time I hear about the 'uniqueness' of Japan or the Japanese I try not to cringe. |
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Bread
Joined: 24 May 2009
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
| Every time I hear about the 'uniqueness' of Japan or the Japanese I try not to cringe. |
Don't ever, EVER try to live in Korea. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
| Sounds like a reference to China. |
How did you guess!? 
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| Well, depends on the nationality. Chinese, Brazilians, and Pakistanis sometimes don't fare so well. |
Well unless they are actually carting them all off to the cells and interrogation rooms to play Bad Cop (Like Good Cop, Bad Cop but minus the good cop) prior to asking any questions and establishing whether anything is out of the ordinary, then they are within their right to do what they do and like it or not, I can live with it. I mean it's no way as bad as when a couple of police vans turned up and piled a load of us off to the station just before the 2008 Olympics in my city. A couple of us were let go pretty quickly because we had residence permits. But a group of mostly older Australians who had cultural exchange visas because they were doing work experience for their TEFL courses, were treated like lying criminals. One terrified woman was kept even longer than the others and had to endure hours of being shouted at because she accidently used the word "work" despite all the instructions and warnings they were given about what not to say to the authorities.
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| That is true for the most part, though sometimes lunch specials are not mentioned at restaurants no are special discounts aways given. |
True. But I can tell you that there are places the world over that will neglect to mention special offers. The cafes in Whitstable do that to the tourists (foreign and British alike) in the summer.
It's hardly the same as shop keepers looking up, seeing a foreign face and then spewing a BS story about somebody making a mistake on the price tag and that the product is actually 3x the tag figure; a situation made all that much more insulting because the native customer before you just bought the same thing for the tag price. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
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| What (continues) to attract people to Japan is that it is the most highly developed south east asia country that continues to have one foot firmly planted in the historical past. |
And, the manga/anime. And, the ideas of golden streets and widely available eager women. |
Perhaps for some of the stranger and naive lot that come over here. |
You try to make it sound as if those weirdos are not very common, and I would beg to differ if that's what you meant.
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| But there are many things that can make life for foreigners seem comparably better than in other E.Asian countries. |
No arguments there.
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| Foreigners don't get rounded up and interrogated by the police and immigration as the country tries to shake its negative image to other countries before big events. |
Rounded up and interrogated? No, but were you here when FIFA World Cup was being prepared?
Or the G-8 conference near Sapporo?
Or when the governor of Tokyo said that in case of an earthquake, the military here had better be prepared to take care of the riots from the foreigners?
Or when the government basically tried to bribe the Brazilians to go home?
Or when zainichi are refused the right to vote, because the government thinks they will put into office people sympathetic to North Korean causes?
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| Let's not forget that not every shop keeper becomes an opportunistic criminal as soon as they see a foreign face here. |
You mean not every shopkeeper sees a foreigner as an opportunistic criminal, don't you? I would agree that most don't, but Japan still has its notorious cases of those who do!
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| unless they are actually carting them all off to the cells and interrogation rooms to play Bad Cop (Like Good Cop, Bad Cop but minus the good cop) prior to asking any questions and establishing whether anything is out of the ordinary, then they are within their right to do what they do and like it or not, I can live with it. |
No, the police are often not within their right to harass people on the street just because they don't "look Japanese". Foreigners (and even one Japanese woman!!!) are commonly singled out for ID checks for no reason. Unless there is a just cause for suspected crime, this is not their right. |
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Bread
Joined: 24 May 2009
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| You mean not every shopkeeper sees a foreigner as an opportunistic criminal, don't you? I would agree that most don't, but Japan still has its notorious cases of those who do! |
No, he's talking about how, in some countries (like China), shopkeepers will see a foreigner and instantly mark the price up on everything by 100-200%. The price tag was a mistake, you see. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| No, the police are often not within their right to harass people on the street just because they don't "look Japanese". Foreigners (and even one Japanese woman!!!) are commonly singled out for ID checks for no reason. Unless there is a just cause for suspected crime, this is not their right. |
I guess our definitions of harrass are quite different. It is my understanding that the foreigners are required to carry ID with them at all times and that police are allowed to check that a foreigner is here legally. If that is the case, then what they do is a nuisance but part of their job since overstaying visas or working without a proper visa is a crime.
Whilst I find the police asking me for ID and questions annoying, they are always polite even when I decide to be awkward about answering questions (even I drew the line when they started asking, where I was going, what I was doing and who I was meeting on one of the 2 occasions I was IDed this August) and I have never been carted off to a police station, interrogated or had them stick a gun in my face (like the guardia civil did in Spain when I was 19 getting ready for the start of my time at uni in Granada the following month).
I do feel annoyed sometimes because my ambiguous appearence leads me to getting IDed pretty often anywhere I go. But I guess after living or spending much time in UK cities where huge numbers of illegal immigrants are allowed to move about as they please because the authorities don't have the power to simply confront these people in the street even when it's obvious and have had friends and relatives directly affected by them, I'm more tolerant. Instead they target the employers, who admittedly pay them crap wages, but often feed and put a roof over their heads, keeping them off the streets and not reliant on commiting crimes to survive. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
| No, the police are often not within their right to harass people on the street just because they don't "look Japanese". Foreigners (and even one Japanese woman!!!) are commonly singled out for ID checks for no reason. Unless there is a just cause for suspected crime, this is not their right. |
I guess our definitions of harrass are quite different. It is my understanding that the foreigners are required to carry ID with them at all times |
Same in Japan, whether it's your passport or (more commonly and easily) your alien registration card).
| Quote: |
| and that police are allowed to check that a foreigner is here legally. |
Unless they have a solid reason (a bust at a bar, or if they suspect you are doing something illegal), they don't have that right in Japan. That doesn't stop them, and they will try to buffalo their way through rights with naive foreigners.
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| If that is the case, then what they do is a nuisance but part of their job since overstaying visas or working without a proper visa is a crime. |
Both those conditions are crimes here, too, but there are legal limits to what they can do in Japan. It's just up to the foreigner to decide whether they want to object or passively resist or not. I think most just show their ID. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:10 am Post subject: |
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Glenski is right- under the law here the police do actually have to have probable cause, or whatever the Japanese version might be, to stop you ( or any Japanese national) and ask you for ID, even if it's just jaywalking or riding your bicycle without a light (and they often seem to use those things as opportunities).
They are not legally allowed to just ask you for your ID out of the blue when you are minding your own business walking to the station for example, although sometimes they do. People are then within their rights to refuse to show ID, but as Glenski says, most will usually take the path of least resistance and just show their ARC. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:07 am Post subject: |
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I must have terrorist, illegal immigrant, dealer and girl of loose morals written all over me then I'm nearly always stopped when I'm at a station or airport regardless of the country. And I'm never doing anything unusual. The last two times I got called on whilst reading flight information at Narita and whilst standing in the smoking area outside Keisei-Ueno with a book. I always wonder whether when they ask me what I'm doing whether it's a trick question... umm... This is the smoking area so I'm smoking. I'm holding a book open in front of me so one would assume I'm reading. I'm outside a station so it's a safe bet I'm waiting for a train.
And I wonder whether the police would see it as suspicious that a foreigner was exercising their right to not show ID. Actually, if someone can direct me to official documentation in Japanese that says I do not have to show ID unless I'm suspected of having commited a crime and I'm feeling brave/annoyed enough, I'll have a go and tell you what happens. But I wouldn't be surprised if they gave the same reason the Guardia Civil did right before they stuck the gun in my face (there's a bit more to that story but I won't bore you with the details): We suspect that you might be here illegally.
But like I said, I can live with it. Japan is one of the safest countries in the world and the fact the illegals are not attacking women in broad day light in the streets (my aunt got attacked in front of her toddler and put in hospital for a gold chain and small change and even I had to resort to kicking a guy in the face when he got angry because he thought I was putting on airs when I told him that I wasn't an illegal nor from S.America) means that obviously Japan is doing enough to deter the 'in your face' attitude illegals have in the UK.
The violent/criminal ones aside, I wonder how many would have the audacity to try this here:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Tesco-Supermarket-Model-Fatou-Cham-Is-An-Illegal-Immigrant-From-Gambia-West-Africa/Article/200909415392947?lpos=UK_News_Article_Related_Content_Region_3&lid=ARTICLE_15392947_Tesco_Supermarket_Model_Fatou_Cham_Is_An_Illegal_Immigrant_From_Gambia%2C_West_Africa
Some might think I trivialising what is a serious issue for foreigners in Japan. But I guess for many of them, the first time they have ever been IDed was when they came here. Me, I've had it for years across the world. I've even been interrogated on return to the UK. And when you've personally witnessed or experienced what happens when a country is too pc to take firm action to prevent the more severe often problems caused by illegal immigrants or been IDed in as impolite a manner as I have in other countries, you'll likely perceive how the Japanese police go about it in a different light. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| And I wonder whether the police would see it as suspicious that a foreigner was exercising their right to not show ID. Actually, if someone can direct me to official documentation in Japanese that says I do not have to show ID unless I'm suspected of having commited a crime and I'm feeling brave/annoyed enough, I'll have a go and tell you what happens. |
http://www.debito.org/whattodoif.html
This from the biggest advocate of foreigners' human rights in Japan (a naturalized citizen, no less).
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| obviously Japan is doing enough to deter the 'in your face' attitude illegals have in the UK. |
For you, yes. For others, not always. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Well after reading that I'm having second thoughts about having a go already because it would seem that Mr Debito sort of disagrees with the 2 of you. According to him:
The Foreign Registry Law, Section 13, Clause 2. Foreigners, when asked to show their Gaijin Cards by immigration investigation officials (as outlined in separate laws), police, coast guard, or any other national or local public official or group empowered by the Ministry of Justice as part of the execution of their duties, must show.
So although they should in theory have a good reason to ID you, this little piece of legislation can be used as a loophole; if they ask to see it, you have to obey. The only thing you truely have the right to do is to ask for their police ID and take down their info.
They always show me their ID as soon as they ask. Quite possibly because I always play dumb initially when they ask. But it's good to know that I have the right to start a collection book of police ID info.
Debito also says:
Unlike citizens, Japanese police do not need probable cause or clear suspicion of a crime in order to stop foreigners and ask personal questions.
I have simply refused to give info such as my phone number or answer certain personal questions and they just let the issue drop. So I guess they can ask, but they can't force us to answer unless they put us under arrest. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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First and foremost, nobody here ever told you to try anything with the Japanese police, ok? I hope you didn't think we did.
Second, you didn't read or quote enough of the link. Go back and read again. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
First and foremost, nobody here ever told you to try anything with the Japanese police, ok? I hope you didn't think we did.
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Did I imply as such? I'm pretty sure I put out the idea and then took it back on reading the link you provided.
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| Second, you didn't read or quote enough of the link. Go back and read again. |
Wow. Not even my parents talk down to me like that.
Was that meant to be insulting, or do you consider ordering people around a perfectly acceptable way to speak to other adults?
And for your info, I read the whole thing. He pretty much says the same thing at the start, in the main body and the conclusion. So kindly enlighten me as to where I am mistaken. |
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chongalice49
Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:01 am Post subject: |
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Answer to the topic: NO.
Everyone please don't bother coming and leave all the jobs for me!! 
Just kidding  I think Japan's still worth it if you're really motivated and want it. If your heart's been set on it, there's no question of whether it's "worth it" or not. Go for your dreams!
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