Job Discussion Forums

[artemisia]

Yes, it's good you've clarified this matter! Lovers are important .

I found even when I developed sufficient skills to communicate in another language,once I had started off in English with someone, it was very difficult to change languages. It just felt strange or unnatural and as it took a long time before it was even possible to hold a decent conversation, English was always the favoured language.

I put this down to my own wish to be able continue expressing myself well in my native language. This wasn't really true though as I couldn't always speak English at a native level with non-native speakers. Then later on I met and made friends with people in German and found the reverse was true. Occasionally speaking English with them also felt strange. Unless you regularly swap between languages, the one you use to initially get to know someone always seems to be the dominant one.

As I said in an earlier post, it takes a long time and a lot of effort to be able to express yourself in another language beyond superficialities. You have to have to be motivated and have a long term commitment.

[Iceman33]

[Zero]

Big waste of time. Everyone speaks English nowadays anyway. Spend your efforts on something productive, would be my advice.

[Daddyo]

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You're all wusses. Get off your butts and find a decent teacher, then put in two sessions a week of two hours each, plus homework. And enough with the incredibly lame '...but awwwwwwwww teacher it's so harrrrrrd.." excuses, ok? Sheesh...

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[Perilla]

study of a foreign language should be a prerequisite for anyone wanting to teach EFL. Otherwise you would be one who says �do as I say not as I do.

IMO this is something of an urban myth. The majority of TEFL teachers are pretty much monolingual English users but generally they still do a decent job of teaching English to their students and it's insulting to suggest otherwise. If they've done a proper TEFL course as part of their training they will have had at least a modicum of second language experience. Better if they continue to follow another language I agree, but methinks this aspect gets exaggerated ...

[artemisia]

I initially did a year of beginner German at uni before travelling. As I didn't go to Germany until about a year later I promptly forgot most of it. The courses I did in Germany were always conducted in German (unlike my uni experience) so I learned much faster. Probably my various teachers spoke at least one other language other than English but it wasn't an important aspect of my learning. Whether or not it helped them to be better teachers I can't say.

While I think it would be good if native English speakers were encouraged to learn another language in their own countries at a young age, I sometimes rather like not understanding what my students are saying! I currently have a bunch of Chinese students and about three or four times so far they've looked really startled and asked me if I understand Chinese. This has happened when I've added another explanation about or further clarified something. They'd obviously just been asking each other about that precise point (though officially it's English only in the classroom!) when I 'answered' it for them. If you know the material well you can take a pretty good guess as to what students are likely to find difficult.

[denise]

Another thought (or maybe rehashing an old one--this thread has gone on for so long that I've lost track of it!): How do the locals treat you?

Here, and in other places I've lived, I walk into a shop/office/etc., and people speak to me in English. If I'm sitting alone in a cafe and someone wants to approach me, it happens in English. In Japan, the locals were shocked that I could do anything in Japanese--I remember ordering a snack on the street once and being complimented on my Japanese. Which I did NOT take as a compliment!

In Peru, everything outside of my job was Spanish. Taxi drivers, shopkeepers, guys in cafes & bars--people everywhere spoke to me in Spanish--with an occasional exception, sure, but the exceptions were very, very rare. Nobody was surprised that I could speak Spanish.

I speak to people in English when I'm in America. If I see a Japanese-looking person on the street, I don't bow and say "ohayo gozaimasu!!" If I see a Hispanic person on the street, I don't say, "Hola, que tal?" I just assume they speak English, and I pass by without saying anything. I loved being treated like that in Peru (minus the exceptions and the calls of "mamacita!"). I really dislike hearing calls of "hellohellohellohello" by random people on the street. It's very off-putting, and it just further decreases my motivation... If all they see is a generic white person, and if they assume that all generic white people speak English, then I don't want to spend my time trying to change that... I will find other ways to occupy my free time. There are plenty of them here.

But maybe that's just me being prissy!

d

[Rakuten]

I find it rather absurd so many expats living/working in a foreign country for an extended period of time (anytime over 2-3 years honestly), would not try and at least put a base or minimal effort into learning the native language.

Such excuses like, "it's too hard" or "I'm too old to learn another language" or "most people speak English here, why bother" are all just excuses for plain laziness.

So many expats I know living/working in Korea/Japan have little to no grasp of the language, and refuse to put even minimal time or effort into even bothering to learn basic conversational proficiency. Why? Why not put in the effort to familiarize yourself with the language- even if most people do speak English, not everyone does (especially so in Japan/Korea), and it would make your life abroad that much easier and fulfilling.

I know too many expats who absolutely refuse to integrate themselves with the culture or the language, or make friends with any natives- instead hanging out and drinking with fellow foreigners/expats, of the same mentality. I don't understand this. Why bother living and working in a foreign country if you don't even respect the culture enough to put in the bare minimum and at least familiarize yourself with basic conversational proficiency. It can only enrich your experiences in the culture and community and provide you with more and greater opportunities, both social and further.

It's laziness pure and simple, "if I can get by without it, why bother". But, I find that mentality disappointing. At the very least, it's a sign of respect to the culture you are living in to at least make the minimum attempt at the local/native language. Especially so, if you have been in a country for 5+ year and onwards, to have absolutely no grasp of the language by that point is almost downright disrespectful and rather disappointing in my opinion.

Perhaps I'm biased, as I love languages and linguistics, but even if you don't- I don't think learning a language, especially when you are living in that country is a waste of time, and can only benefit you. You're making it that much harder for yourself by reinforcing the language barrier between yourself and the culture. I can't even see myself wanting to move to a country if I had zero interest in the culture or the language in the first place. I would at least make an attempt, no matter where I was.

[denise]

1. I am certainly NOT lazy! A bit too active...

2. I have priorities, and for reasons that I am perfectly OK with, studying the language just isn't one of them. Too much else going on in my life.

3. I completely agree with the reference to living in the Gulf. Sure, it's easy to blast those of us who hang out with other expats. In the Gulf, it is the norm. Few people seem bothered by it. People who live in countries/cultures where it is common to intermingle, date the locals, etc. might scoff at those of us who don't. Yeah? Well, come on over here and try getting yourself a local girl or guy! Sure, you may get invited to the occasional wedding, Eid celebration, etc., as a window into the culture. And maybe have a few very westernized local friends. But not much more.

4. I don't try to tell anybody to spend their time doing what I do. Why on earth would somebody tell me, or anybody else, to do so? We each make our own decisions.

Getting prissier by the minute,
d

[artemisia]

Yes, this thread has gone on for a long time! I�ll repeat something I posted much earlier. The vast majority of English learners have been given a strong basis (or so we�d like to think) in English at school over a period of many years. Many native English speakers do not have that advantage and really have to begin learning a language from scratch. I think it is good to learn about the local culture and language of a place you�re going to be based in for a while but I can understand why many don�t.

Going abroad, living in a foreign land and not learning the language is not limited to ESL teachers! At least the ones I�ve met, while travelling, talk from the perspective of being a foreigner in whatever country. I have sometimes got a little irritated at being referred to as a �foreigner� in my own country. That is, not me personally but the locals, eg: �Chinese students like going to restaurants where other Chinese work, not foreigners�. This is a characteristic I�ve noticed amongst Japanese, Korean and Chinese students. Perhaps they don�t all operate from the perspective of never being the foreigner but I�ve heard it a lot. I also don�t think English learning is necessarily seen as some wonderful opportunity to learn all about another culture and communicate in a new way but rather it�s seen as a functional skill they know they have to have in order to get ahead. In this sense English lessons for many students are not really about learning a language but acquiring a kind of commercial product where the value is rated by how useful it will be to get a job. How many people would bother learning if they could travel and live abroad knowing they could get by in their native languages?
I like learning languages for cultural as well as practical reasons but not everyone does. I don't think learning one automatically identifies you as having some great ability to respect other cultures - not if many ESL students are anything to go by!
Maybe I've just been teaching English for too long and am a bit worn out!

[Sudz]

Wow this thread has taken off! Haven't checked in for a while, I suppose my interests have lingered elsewhere - not that the topic is any less interesting.

I actually expected to see more replies along the lines of Rabuten: those who are critical about those who haven't put an effort into the language. I seem to remember when I first came - when I was slightly more ignorant - feeling puzzled that some people had been in HCMC for 2 or 3 years without having much knowledge of the language (thinking that it was even disrespectful). Obviously that has ,changed though I still do have a bit of envy to those who have gained a sufficient handle on the language.

As a previous poster mention, other interests can get in the way of doing this. Motivation is obviously a key factor in learning a language, and I think that this tends to diminish quickly when one learns that they can get by without it - especially with a more difficult language. I myself was busy with other studies while here.

Not learning the language doesn't mean that you can't make local friends, as I have a few close ones. I've also traveled extensively throughout Vietnam, and know more than my fair share about the ins and outs of this country. Still though, I do have those moments when I'm out of the city, when I feel some regret for my very limited Vietnamese.

The whole being 'disrespectful' thing can only be taken on a case-by-case basis. I've never met a local here in HCMC who felt 'disrespected' by my lack of Vietnamese, and they are generally pleased with what little I know (or wowed in the case of those with a strong handle on the language). Now if I were to live in the countryside, that might be a different story.

I'm not saying there's any great reason not for learning a language, but I know understand where a lot of people are coming from, as I'm now in the same position myself As I mentioned though in this thread, I do feel some regret, though I thank those for sharing their similar experiences.

Not challenging you Rambutan, but do you know any tonal languages?

[Sudz]

Oh and helmsman, I only have (had) some basic French which I learned in public school. Truly had no interest in it at the time.

[Sudz]

One more comment. A lot of us don't know that we're going to be in a country for any significant period of time when we first start. I myself was thinking of doing a year, which turned into a year + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1.

Thankfully, I finally have somewhat of a long term plan

[naturegirl321]

[Phil_K]

Just a point on the "foreigner" thing. I've lived in Mexico for 9 years, speak Spanish, have a Mexican wife, have an apartment with the mortgage fully-paid, drive a locally bought (and built!) car, dabble in other business interests in Mexico, fully understand the culture to the point of thinking of writing a book about it, know more Mexican history than many Mexicans, etc, etc.

The point is, the only people who discuss my foreign-ness are my students. I'm grateful for that as I believe part of learning a language is knowing the culture it comes from. I always had the idea that living in a foreign country requires no compromise with the style of life you would choose in your country of birth. That is, most of us want the very best out of life that we can get. While I have absolutely no desire to apply for Mexican nationality (and I could right now) and in truth am not that enamoured of Mexico, I live here for the sake of my wife, and believe that I am as fully integrated as is possible. That wouldn't be possible if I didn't speak Spanish.