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eslteach
Joined: 28 Sep 2010
Posts: 94
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 Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:24 am Post subject: What Happens if Uni Refuses to Give Reference Letter? |
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I am not in this position but I am curious about the hypothetical. What happens if a Chinese University is not willing to give a positive reference letter to a teacher?
Is it impossible in that case to find another university job in China? |
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xi.gua
Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Then you say you didn't work there.....
Or I guess you can find someone you make you a fake one. This is China afterall. |
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HiddenTreasure
Joined: 03 Oct 2010
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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That's pathetic. "This is China" so just commit fraud. WOW!
Yeah, just "say you didn't work there" despite having an alien resident permit and foreign expert certificate issued in your name.
Stunning suggestion.
A school is not required to give a POSITIVE reference letter. If they give you a negative-based letter, then you're out of luck - that's simply what they give you.
In that case, you try to get a job based on your recommendations, just like any other country. You should also hope the local PSB ignores what is actually written - otherwise, they have the right to refuse issuing a new resident permit based on a bad letter of recommendation.
They are required however to issue a release/reference letter whether you finish the contract or not. Let the new school and police know the old school refused to follow the law regarding this document.
What is the TRUTH going on behind the scenes of your situation that would cause you to even consider this scenario? |
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xi.gua
Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| HiddenTreasure wrote: |
That's pathetic. "This is China" so just commit fraud. WOW!
Yeah, just "say you didn't work there" despite having an alien resident permit and foreign expert certificate issued in your name.
Stunning suggestion.
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China operates by a different set of rules. Don't come here expecting the same rules as western societies, because it's not the same. It's easy for a school to get angry because you leave for valid reasons and refuse to issue you a positive recommendation. There are ways out of any situation. Often times the people that refuse to adapt to a new environments norm (be it legal or not) are left in the dust.....even in western businesses.
I welcome you to hand your new school a horrible recommendation letter filled with slander and lies just because you decided to leave a bad situation. Schools won't believe you, they'll believe their fellow Chinese. |
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HiddenTreasure
Joined: 03 Oct 2010
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| xi.gua wrote: |
China operates by a different set of rules. Don't come here expecting the same rules as western societies, because it's not the same. It's easy for a school to get angry because you leave for valid reasons and refuse to issue you a positive recommendation. There are ways out of any situation. Often times the people that refuse to adapt to a new environments norm (be it legal or not) are left in the dust.....even in western businesses.
I welcome you to hand your new school a horrible recommendation letter filled with slander and lies just because you decided to leave a bad situation. Schools won't believe you, they'll believe their fellow Chinese. |
Sure, go ahead and try to justify the fraudulent nature of your own behavior.
Fraud hardly fit the "when in Rome" way of life.
The reason schools believe their fellow Chinese folk is because of people like YOU. Knowingly admit that fraud is okay does nothing but show our Chinese management that you are untrustworthy. Committing fraud only proves that you were probably at fault for leaving your school/job and that the information in the negative recommendation letter is likely true.
You've only proven my point.
Not only that, but "decided to leave a bad situation" doesn't fly either. A contract is a contract - you don't like the situation, well that's too bad! Fulfill the terms of your contract. If it turns out to suck, well too bad - you should have done your research and soul-searching before flying on over to the other side of the world. Accept the adult-hood of responsibility and figure out that you took the risk, signed a contract, and so on.
Want to leave the job UNDER THE TERMS of the contract? Go ahead, use the rules of procedure to protect yourself - let the Foreign Expert Bureau, local PSB, etc. know what happened.
Flat-out -- -- -- ACCEPT PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, otherwise, go back home, commit fraud and find out what happens to you ... or is THAT the reason you can't get a job back home and forced to accept such "horrible conditions" in your host country?
Just gotta shake my head and laugh. |
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max81
Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| what if I only recieved a letter stating I worked for the university from September to April? would this cause any problems with the new school I am applying for? |
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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3258
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| I believe the letter has to state that you fulfilled the terms of the contract and that your job performance was satisfactory. Also, the letter is not just for the new school, it's for the department that issues the resident permit. |
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DixieCat
Joined: 24 Aug 2010
Posts: 263
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Perhaps acquiring a release letter from the school and if needed a recommendation from a department head or co workers...there is a lotta ways to skin the cat.. |
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motown
Joined: 07 Jun 2008
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| xi.gua wrote: |
| HiddenTreasure wrote: |
That's pathetic. "This is China" so just commit fraud. WOW!
Yeah, just "say you didn't work there" despite having an alien resident permit and foreign expert certificate issued in your name.
Stunning suggestion.
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China operates by a different set of rules. Don't come here expecting the same rules as western societies, because it's not the same. It's easy for a school to get angry because you leave for valid reasons and refuse to issue you a positive recommendation. There are ways out of any situation. Often times the people that refuse to adapt to a new environments norm (be it legal or not) are left in the dust.....even in western businesses.
I welcome you to hand your new school a horrible recommendation letter filled with slander and lies just because you decided to leave a bad situation. Schools won't believe you, they'll believe their fellow Chinese. |
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I agree with your post. Also want to add a tidbit.
I talked directly with someone who used to work at an embassy in Beijing. They told me that it's not unusual to have a relative of the local PSB running the ESL school. (especially in remote areas).
Going to the PSB or FEB for assistance is not a guarantee; especially if they are on the school's payroll. The long and short of it is that China is a very corrupt country and will be for some time. Best to go to another country. |
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DixieCat
Joined: 24 Aug 2010
Posts: 263
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I talked directly with someone who used to work at an embassy in Beijing. |
The least likely to be informed.
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| Going to the PSB or FEB for assistance is not a guarantee; |
These branches of administration were never intended to be a mediating board between worker and employer, how ever the labor board is, although even they cannot demand a reference letter written in favor of the employee. SAFEA is also powerless unless the employer in question is subject to some kind of influence within the agency.
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The long and short of it is that China is a very corrupt country and will be for some time. |
However true this maybe, this tidbit is often handed out by those who have not directly experienced the corruption.
You can also consider a Foreign worker permit, which may be easier to get the necessary employment/resident paperwork, but the best best would be to just acquire the release letter and work with that. Many places have a form and someone here found one on line. Try downloading that and just have them sign and chop. |
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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3258
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| SAFEA is also powerless |
Too true. SAFEA's primary raison d'etre is to make us think we have some rights here. We don't. |
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Cousin Vinnie
Joined: 17 Oct 2010
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:05 am Post subject: |
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As previously stated, a lot of places are now switching to a government approved form which basically is the Release & Recommendation Letter in one.
In the past, when moving from 1 school to another, all you needed was a simple letter which had your name, passport number, dates of employment and a statement that you completed your contract.
Then, some schools started requesting a separate Recommendation Letter as well = 2 pieces of paper.
Now, places such as Shanghai and Guangdong, require the form. The top of the form has boxes for the Release Letter info and then the middle section asks the school to say you were 1 of 3 things - Excellent, OK, Unsatisfactory. There is also a comment box. The bottom of the form is where the school's chop must be made.
Here is the form that was posted here a few months ago -
To download your requested file, click this link Foreign teachers' reference letter (standard)
If the link did not work, copy & paste this URL into your browser address bar
http://www.slideshare.net/confirm/MjU3Njg1NjU7cGF1bGQ=/4356019-66f24c09b956a36f51b8976e18ceb0107649f55d-slideshow
When I moved to a new school this term, I gave this form to my ex-employer. They then found a similar form with more details that they used. The new employer was fine with the form above.
It seems the link didn't go through. But, go to the Slideshow website and search "Foreign Teacher's Reference Letter". Hopefully that works. |
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HiddenTreasure
Joined: 03 Oct 2010
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:03 am Post subject: |
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Your link provides nothing but the homepage of the site. |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| HiddenTreasure wrote: |
| That's pathetic. "This is China" so just commit fraud. WOW! |
Who would be committing the 'fraud' first if the teacher was in fact a decent teacher and fulfilled all roles as stipulated yet the school got angry that the teacher didn't re-sign?
It happens.
A lot.
Schools have to fork out a lot of money, time effort and energy to find an English teacher. They have a lot of paperwork to do, and at the end of the day they are not even guaranteed a decent teacher as a result.
Retaining the previous teacher is in the school's best interest. So getting upset and 'hurting the school's feelings' by not re-signing for another year if common, and it is not uncommon for the school to say bad things about that teacher in spite.
Knowing this information, I would suggest that you follow the advice of countless resume gurus on-line: omit that past experience. There is no 'fraud', anymore than it would be 'fraud' to maintain your right to silence in court or when arrested. |
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eslteach
Joined: 28 Sep 2010
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
Knowing this information, I would suggest that you follow the advice of countless resume gurus on-line: omit that past experience. There is no 'fraud', anymore than it would be 'fraud' to maintain your right to silence in court or when arrested. |
amen. |
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