Job Discussion Forums

[jimoin]

Have you ever heard of or been to an English school that didn't have or even allow discipline of children for misbehaviour in class? Such as shouting, running around, refusing to follow instructions, laughing at others for their English, talking back or directly challenging the teacher? I work in a school that apparently thinks that's okay, because Chinese children are spoilt and their parents think that is very reasonable too. I mean in kids' schools you don't have to deal with this, at least you've got a Chinese teacher there to ensure the students are kept in line. My school is an erstwhile adults school, but in reality it allows anyone in.

How about you guys, have you come across this before? What do you think of it?

[johntpartee]

Depends on what you mean by "discipline". I've taught children of all ages and I've usually never had to do anything more than show them a "war face" and raise my voice. With very young children, I have them face the wall; sometimes they cry. I've never had to use corporal punishment (and probably wouldn't under any circumstances), but let them think that it might happen. An open palm brought down hard on a table usually works well for pre-teens. With older children (middle school through college), just threatening them with the "F" word (failing grade) usually works. One time I had a second year college student who was so out of line that I had the dean take him out of the class and I refused to let him back in. Once that got around the student grapevine, I had NO problems.

Once again, we need to know what you mean by "discipline". If I wasn't allowed by an employer to do what is described above, I'd walk.

[The Great Wall of Whiner]

I'm asking for trouble here, but here goes:

My school is extremely strict.

The boss, under parental approval, uses corporal punishment. Then the parents get told about the situation, and the kid(s) get it again.

Mind you, my kids' grade for the 'Gao Kao' are over 575 on average, so good luck arguing the merits in this society.

As for me, I use 'sticks and carrots'. It works, and I have had all of one problem in the last year (which was tonight actually).

4 problems in 6 years.

[jimoin]

Hmmm, much as the idea of seeing recalcitrant students being beaten has a certain appeal, I wasn't referring to corporal punishment. I was simply referring to the ability to give warnings to students and if necessary to ask them to leave class and to contact their parents over their misbehaviour. Not to mention being able to raise your voice and perhaps scare them into line. In extreme cases I would expect students could be threatened with expulsion.

Personally I do not believe that children can be taught at all with only carrots, there do need to be sticks. Note that my school is a private school, so the little emperors have no fear of a failing grade.

[kev7161]

I have some of the greatest students in the world that any teacher would love to teach. I often do - - and sometimes don't. However, I have two students that I've followed from 1st grade through to their current 6th grade level. One student has an obvious learning disability and struggles with every subject (English and Chinese alike). He's Korean and has a little brother who seems like is on his way to the same path. Every once in a while he shows a burst of creativity or "gets" something, but is really far behind most every other student in the class. The other boy is, in my professional opinion, simply lazy. He is an "only child" whose father is never home I've been told, and whose mother throws her hands up in the air and exclaims how she doesn't know what to do with him.

I have tried every trick in my bag from pleading, cajoling, bribing, extra individual in-class tutoring, threatening, etc. The Chinese teacher yells at them all the time, which is ridiculous in my opinion. Besides, whatever she's telling them is simply a waste of breath. These boys have been passed on year after year and they'll continue to do so into next school year. I have recommended recently to have them hauled to the main principal's office (we have a LOT of "vice"-principals) with both parents in tow as well as me and their head Chinese teacher to "discuss" the problems . . . to no avail. I have come to the realization that, "hey, they are getting the exact same education that all their fellow classmates are getting (and, by the way, are excelling at) - - by now I don't owe them anything else. What they do with the education they are receiving is up to them."

Every year before the first day of classes, the foreign teachers are told in our welcome-to-the-school speech that we are not to yell at the students and should treat them with love and kindness. About a week into the school year, you can walk up and down any hallway and hear Chinese teachers vocalizing at the top of their lungs to one poor soul or another.

My tactics are simple: Give the kids the best education I can. Give them plenty of opportunities to succeed. Plenty of review before a test. Enough homework for them to get good practice (but try not to overwhelm them). Work in interesting projects so it's not just book, book, book all the time. Reward kids that succeed and kids that show improvement. Don't get down too hard on those that stumble from time to time. And now, not get a stroke from those that can't or won't help themselves. I constantly apprise the parents of how their child is doing "so far" throughout the school year (we just sent home nine-week grades last week) and keep the school leaders posted to, you know, CMA . . . and we just keep chugging along.

[jimoin]

I don't get down on students who are struggling academically, I'm purely talking about behaviour problems. I'm curious whether you think simply being nice works. If a student is allowed to be disruptive without consequence, surely the teacher will lose respect in the eyes of other students who may join in the disruption or simply switch off.

[Kurochan]

I'm joining this conversation late, but one thing that works is instituting some sort of point system. For instance, when I taught fifth grade, I had a problem with students teasing each other in class. In any competition, students would automatically lose a point for their whole team if they ridiculed another classmate. Their fellow students got mad, and then because they didn't want trouble with peers, the students start disciplining themselves, making themselves watch what came out of their mouth.

Other Chinese teachers in the school would do the same thing, but have the points accumulate over a week. The best row of students in the classroom would get a treat or a privilege.

Make it clear to the students what is not allowed, and will make them lose points, and I bet you'll see an improvement over behavior.

[jimoin]

Good advice. The point is I'm not allowed to do even that! No rules, no system. Just be nice.

[The Edge]

Send them up the chimneys.

[Kiwi303]

[brsmith15]

jim-o...........I think some of the other posters are right. Get out. To me, the teacher must control his/her classroom and have the final say about what goes on and how students are to be handled. In my teaching years here, I was pretty lucky in that regard.

It all gets down to point of control. In my other life in the US I had a number of marketing jobs and I insisted that anything to do with the customer went thru me. If the bean-counters had a question about pricing, for example, they were NOT to call the customer. If manufacturing was experiencing quality difficulties.....ditto.

In that classroom, the teacher should be GOD. If that idea isn't supported by the school, then the school doesn't understand education very well. There's a downside risk here. The system has to be sure that the poor teacher gets found out and 1.) warned, and/or 2.) fired.

A few years ago my boss asked me to take over a course in English speaking and listening about half completed. I screeched, turned blue, retched. I have the highest respect for English instructors because I have no clue what to do myself with the subject. I hated it in school. To me a simile is a widening of the face when pleased and a metaphor is something you shout thru.

I asked him why he got rid of the teacher who had the course. This guy

1. Had them reading Plato and Socrates and then gving them tests on it. Heck, I couldn't do that.
2. He was from NYC and had that stereotypical mien of New Yorkers. Even I had difficulty understanding him and his arrogance was off the scale.
3. He made fun of the Chinese and their culture.
4. His taste in clothing was abysmal.

I surprised myself! I had fun with it and some of you guys here helped me with ideas because I was totally at sea. For one class, I asked them to come prepared to discuss who they would have over for dinner, why, and what they'd ask him/her. My only restriction was that it couldn't be folks like Mao, Deng, Zhou because everyone in the class would go in that direction. The next assignment was to describe the greatest invention in the world.....but not computers or cell phones.

I was amazed. One guy picked Jesus! Another Edison. Ghengis Kahn. Sir Edmund Hilllary. Eleanor Roosevelt. Naturally, they asked me about my choice. Adolf Hitler. They looked taken aback. I explained that I wanted to ask him one simple question....."Why?" Oh, and my greatest invention? The switch, because without it, the computer couldn't have come into existence. On = 1. Off = 0. So simple, but it eluded people for decades.

Guess you can tell I'm retired......need things to fill my days.

[cormac]

[mrwslee003]

I would say if no tests were given in the school year and no consequences given to misbehaviour, then I know you don't have a quality and workable school. Like during the Cultural Revolution when illiterate kids were allowed to pass because of their class background, the standards went to the dump. Those people are still paying the price for being in the "lost generation".

Kids and people in general need standards to aim for and motivation to behave well. Rules that apply and enforced to everyone fairly would go a long ways in maintaining discipline and order in a school.

[The Great Wall of Whiner]

I must be in some alien school because we teach kids and we are uber extreme 1890's-style 'spare the rod and spoil the child' strict!

Our school is a private language school and I guess we are different in that we focus on exam results. We don't have 'happy happy' game times. The kids write and say and write and say over and over again.

We test, exam, quiz, test, and then check them again. Mistakes are rewarded with a corporal result.

I personally reward my students on an 'improvement' scale rather than a 'top score' scale. When I see kids trying and improving as a direct result of their hard-work, they get something special (a Canadian or American penny, a small candy, etc.)

If you are not allowed to neither punish for bad behaviour nor reward for good behaviour, ask the boss what the incentive is for the kids to be good?

[igorG]

Disciplining students is, especially for FTs, one hell of a sensitive subject on mainland. In early learner, primary or secondary education, it seems to be the custom or trend, that the local employees are responsible for keeping our classrooms in order. In higher educaiton, to my knowledge and from my personal experience, it can be a nighmare. Most locals do not respect our disciplinary measures and asking parents for help may be just like shooting yourself in a leg. It seems to be a catch 22 at any level.