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jiyu
Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 14
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 Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:52 pm Post subject: salaries at national universities |
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Hello All,
I've been shortlisted for an Associate Professor position at Osaka University, but they haven't given me the salary (and I'm told it's considered rude to ask). Does anyone know what the salary would be or where I could find out discreetly?
Many thanks in advance. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:30 am Post subject: |
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What is shortlisted in your situation? Does that mean you made it past the first round of application checks, or a second interview, or what? They should be posting at least a range of salary numbers. Every school probably has its own formula to determine what you could get based on number of people in your family, location, type of position, number of papers you published, etc.
Ask for a range of possible salary figures that you should expect. Then expect to get the lowest of that range. |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:34 am Post subject: Re: salaries at national universities |
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| jiyu wrote: |
Hello All,
I've been shortlisted for an Associate Professor position at Osaka University, but they haven't given me the salary (and I'm told it's considered rude to ask). Does anyone know what the salary would be or where I could find out discreetly?
Many thanks in advance. |
Is this a Japanese-equivalent (i.e., permanent) 准教授 position? If so, you'll be making between 5.5 million to 6.5 million yen per year, depending on your age, and not counting your housing and travel allowances (assuming you qualify for both). You'll also have a research budget of about 400,000 yen per year.
Oh, and don't ask about salary (at least for university positions) until you have an offer in hand. You usually can't negotiate regardless, and all it takes is one person on the search committee to dislike the "tone" of your question to end your candidacy!
Good luck on getting the job!
P.S., Glenski, the salaries for national universities are pretty much the same everywhere, even after the dokuritsu gyousei houjinka. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:45 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for contributing, taikibansei. I agree that one should ask only after the offer has been made.
I know of the list for private university salaries, and would have posted it but it didn't seem relevant. Is there one for national? |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
Thanks for contributing, taikibansei. I agree that one should ask only after the offer has been made.
I know of the list for private university salaries, and would have posted it but it didn't seem relevant. Is there one for national? |
There are a couple of lists out there, but I don't know of any in English. Here's one with data from a few years back:
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/tenure/20060310
年齢 助手 講師 助教授
28 453 453 453
29 472 478 478
30 492 501 501
31 511 524 524
32 524 545 591
33 535 567 616
34 546 588 634
35 557 604 651
36 567 621 666
This link below shows salary "averages" for each national university:
http://www.mext.go.jp/b_menu/houdou/19/08/07072607/001/005.htm#top
While the data is a bit old, the high average ages (and salaries) to be found on the latter link underline the aging nature of the professoriate here. I'm one of the youngest people in both my department and in my university as a whole...and (as you know) I'm not that young! Also, you can see from the chart that average salaries declined over the period researched. This decline is continuing...the result of ongoing cuts in university funding from the government. 
Hope this helps!  |
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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 458
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: salaries at national universities |
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| taikibansei wrote: |
| Oh, and don't ask about salary (at least for university positions) until you have an offer in hand. You usually can't negotiate regardless, and all it takes is one person on the search committee to dislike the "tone" of your question to end your candidacy! |
Last summer I attended an interview at Meiji University in Tokyo. Towards the end of the interview, which I had thought was going well, I asked about the salary range. All 4 or 5 of the teachers in the interview claimed not to know anything about my possible salary. They told me that they didn't know what the salary would be because they said that the university had a formula that they used to calculate compensation. So, I asked if they could merely give me an estimate or at least the bottom of a salary range for someone with my qualifications and experience. The chair said that it was not possible.
Although I remained calm, I was incredulous. All of these teachers have likely been at that school for many years. They would know, or have a very good idea, of what each other's salaries are. Yet they refused to give me an idea of what the position pays. I found it impossible to believe that they didn't know what the salary was. Even Takibansei here has some figures listed, so it's not that difficult to come to a rough estimate. It was clear to me that they were purposely being uncooperative when I asked about salary.
I never got the position but I have wondered why so much secrecy regarding salary. Also, I have a problem with schools that do not disclose salary until the position is offered. Many people will spend several hundred dollars to travel and stay in hotels if their travel costs are not paid by the university. Yet often, they have no knowledge of what the position pays.
The school I teach at now was very open about salary from the very beginning but could only give me a rough estimate as the school has a formula for calculating teacher's compensation. Other schools in the past have also been up front about salary.
Depending on the school, type of school, person in charge, it seems that talking salary - even at the interview stage - can create issues. However, I learned years ago that it was appropriate to discuss contract terms at the interview stage, but never before. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: salaries at national universities |
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| Shimokitazawa wrote: |
Although I remained calm, I was incredulous. All of these teachers have likely been at that school for many years. They would know, or have a very good idea, of what each other's salaries are. |
I actually don't find this hard to believe at all.
Why would they know what each other's salaries were? I'm no expert on Japanese culture, but it seems to me that it isn't something polite to just bring up over lunch unless the you were very close. And honestly, it is the same in many countries. In the UK too, it is considered extremely bad form to ask people about highly personal information such as salary if you are not at least very good friends. And even if you happen to know that information about others, you most certainly don't go around sharing it without permission.
At my uni in China, I was actually asked by the dean not to discuss salaries with other teachers.
It's interesting that since I've been working abroad I've become quite free with things like salary information... I guess that it's only by sharing such info with those in a similar situation can you make sure that you are not being taken for a ride by your employers because you don't know any better being foreign and new to a country. But when I'm back in the UK it's once again a taboo subject. I doubt even my parents have any idea how much I earn here purely because I never bring it up and they would never ask. |
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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 458
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: salaries at national universities |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
I actually don't find this hard to believe at all.
Why would they know what each other's salaries were? |
My thinking has been the exact opposite of yours.
I'm not from the U.K. However, I would be willing to bet that Japanese professors, especially those working in the same university, actually have a very good idea what their colleagues are earning. Remember, some of these people have been teaching for 20 years or more at the same school. It doesn't take long to figure it all out. My Chair was involved in my contract signing and so he would know what the teachers make. Also, I've seen a pay slip on a table and know what local instructors are making. I've also talked to other foreign instructors at the school about salary, mind you they weren't from the U.K. aha!!
And in my situation mentioned above, I would expect a Department Head to know exactly what his/her local and foreign instructors are being paid. Especially since they are often involved with contract related matters when new instructors are hired. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:43 pm Post subject: Re: salaries at national universities |
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| Shimokitazawa wrote: |
| They told me that they didn't know what the salary would be because they said that the university had a formula that they used to calculate compensation. |
Just like I wrote on this thread on Nov. 23rd.
| Quote: |
So, I asked if they could merely give me an estimate or at least the bottom of a salary range for someone with my qualifications and experience. The chair said that it was not possible.
Although I remained calm, I was incredulous. All of these teachers have likely been at that school for many years. They would know, or have a very good idea, of what each other's salaries are. |
Yes, perhaps, but keep in mind the following:
1) They may know what they are making now, but they probably don't know what the newbies are making nowadays.
2) They do not know the formula or how your circumstances fit into it.
| Quote: |
| Even Takibansei here has some figures listed, so it's not that difficult to come to a rough estimate. It was clear to me that they were purposely being uncooperative when I asked about salary. |
Maybe, but I don't think so. You are imposing a western standard of thinking on the situation. If they aren't 100% certain, even of a rough range, they are very likely not going to risk telling you something that would turn out to be different later. Protection in silence for both your sakes.
| Quote: |
| I have a problem with schools that do not disclose salary until the position is offered. Many people will spend several hundred dollars to travel and stay in hotels if their travel costs are not paid by the university. Yet often, they have no knowledge of what the position pays. |
Simple solution to your grief: don't apply. As mentioned above, if it ever comes to the point of offering you a position, that is the time to ask for the salary, and at that point, the person (not panel) in charge will probably be able to accommodate you. Many universities put a salary range in their ads, but they are not obligated to do so. To apply to the latter is your own risk, so it is up to you to keep quiet until necessary. |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Even Takibansei here has some figures listed |
Actually, given that I write and lecture on administrative trends in Japan, the fact that I'd have, say, salary data on hand is not so surprising.
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| However, I would be willing to bet that Japanese professors, especially those working in the same university, actually have a very good idea what their colleagues are earning. |
You'd lose your money! Neither my Japanese colleagues nor I have any idea what other faculty members here are earning. Heck, I was on the 財務委員会 (university budget committee) here for two years, with direct access to a lot of my university's financial data...and I still have no idea what even the guy next door is getting. Moreover, at most (all?) Japanese universities, the department hiring you has no control over how much you will get paid--some pencil-pushing bureaucrat in the personnel office makes that decision after you get hired, using an arcane calculating system that quite frankly nobody understands fully.
In other words, Seklarwia and Glenski are exactly right--at least for permanent positions (contract positions often have set salaries/salary ranges), university search committees usually don't know, and asking before you have an offer in hand can only hurt you. (Similarly, asking about salary when seeking tenure-track appointments in the States can get you in trouble as well.) I've been on--and even headed--search committees at Japanese universities. Frankly, I'd have loved to be able to give out salary figures. However, we just can't. Part of the problem is that we can only guess--and what if our guess is high? E.g., what if we say "between 6 million and 7 million yen," and the bureaucrat located in another building decides on 5.8 million? Would you be happy at this kind of mistake? Many wouldn't. |
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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 458
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| taikibansei wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Even Takibansei here has some figures listed |
Actually, given that I write and lecture on administrative trends in Japan, the fact that I'd have, say, salary data on hand is not so surprising.
| Quote: |
| However, I would be willing to bet that Japanese professors, especially those working in the same university, actually have a very good idea what their colleagues are earning. |
You'd lose your money! Neither my Japanese colleagues nor I have any idea what other faculty members here are earning. Heck, I was on the 財務委員会 (university budget committee) here for two years, with direct access to a lot of my university's financial data...and I still have no idea what even the guy next door is getting. Moreover, at most (all?) Japanese universities, the department hiring you has no control over how much you will get paid--some pencil-pushing bureaucrat in the personnel office makes that decision after you get hired, using an arcane calculating system that quite frankly nobody understands fully.
In other words, Seklarwia and Glenski are exactly right--at least for permanent positions (contract positions often have set salaries/salary ranges), university search committees usually don't know, and asking before you have an offer in hand can only hurt you. (Similarly, asking about salary when seeking tenure-track appointments in the States can get you in trouble as well.) I've been on--and even headed--search committees at Japanese universities. Frankly, I'd have loved to be able to give out salary figures. However, we just can't. Part of the problem is that we can only guess--and what if our guess is high? E.g., what if we say "between 6 million and 7 million yen," and the bureaucrat located in another building decides on 5.8 million? Would you be happy at this kind of mistake? Many wouldn't. |
I'm not going to spend too much time responding to this, but I still maintain that most of the teaching staff are aware of what the salary scales are and what others ear earning.
In fact I had another conversation with a colleague today regarding compensation and when I asked him if fellow colleagues were aware of what others were making he said, "How can they not? It's all standardized at national universities." There really is very little variation.
Also, salary scales for many private universities can be found on the Internet.
My Department Head and another professor were there for the signing of my contract and so are aware of our salaries. This is not unusual.
So, when I asked the chair at Meiji University what the salary range would be for my position and she told me she didn't know, I didn't believe her. Now, I only asked for a rough idea of salary, not a guarantee. So if if fell well below that range how could I blame them for that.
At any rate, I believe that most people have a very good idea of what others are earning, particularly at the national or public schools. |
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tcatsninfan
Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Shimokitazawa wrote: |
So, when I asked the chair at Meiji University what the salary range would be for my position and she told me she didn't know, I didn't believe her. Now, I only asked for a rough idea of salary, not a guarantee. So if if fell well below that range how could I blame them for that.
At any rate, I believe that most people have a very good idea of what others are earning, particularly at the national or public schools. |
The whole thing is bad form. When I was first reading your responses I was thinking about how it's impolite in Japanese society to ask about these kinds of things, but the more I thought about it the more I realized it's the same way here in the US. It's impolite to ask about salary, even a range, before there is some sort of offer on the table. It paints you as someone who's just out to earn a paycheck, someone who doesn't really care about the job.
You mention traveling expenses for going to interviews and all that, but what does the salary have to do with that? You can't find out what the salary is before you go to the interview, so you've got to decide whether you want to interview and spend the money or not worry about it.
It's the same way here in the US. I've driven to one interview at a place that was 6 hours away, and another place where I had to spend the night at a hotel in town because it was so far away, and both times I didn't get the job. Yeah, it kind of sucks that I spent that money for nothing, basically, but that's how life plays out sometimes.
So, yes, I have no doubt that the Meiji chair COULD have given you some sort of salary range, but that's not how it works. I don't know exactly how to put it all into words, but it's a taboo subject, especially in Japan, and a lot of times asking about things like that will cost you the job.
I wish there were a better answer for you but that's how things are. Your only alternative would be to try finding the information online somehow. I realize the chances of this are slim but it's the only thing I can think of. |
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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 458
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for your input.
It is interesting to hear the different perspectives on this issue. Frankly, asking about salary doesn't offend me and I have a tough time wondering why that would violate interviewing etiquette.
Well, perhaps any discussion of compensation will depend on the institution, the type of institution and the particular personalities involved. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Shimokitazawa wrote: |
I'm not going to spend too much time responding to this, but I still maintain that most of the teaching staff are aware of what the salary scales are and what others ear earning.
In fact I had another conversation with a colleague today regarding compensation and when I asked him if fellow colleagues were aware of what others were making he said, "How can they not? It's all standardized at national universities." There really is very little variation. |
The word "standardized" means what we have been saying for a few posts now. That is, there is a formula. What you don't seem to accept is that this formula has variables for people:
age
married or single status
number of kids
where you live within the city
commuting costs
etc.
| Quote: |
| Also, salary scales for many private universities can be found on the Internet. |
I know of the listings for Kansai area salaries. If you know others, how about posting a few links?
| Quote: |
| My Department Head and another professor were there for the signing of my contract and so are aware of our salaries. This is not unusual. |
I would say that it is unusual. Nobody from my department was on hand when I signed my contract and other related documents, except the administrative staff. Even if your boss was there, it would be improper for him to look at your salary figure. He would be more interested in your qualifications for hiring, not in what the school set as its formulaic standard to offer you.
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| At any rate, I believe that most people have a very good idea of what others are earning, particularly at the national or public schools. |
Believe what you will. It's like a friend of mine in the U.S. military told his parents (!) when they asked him for his salary after he got a promotion: it's public knowledge, so look it up, Mom & Dad. Few people try.
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| Frankly, asking about salary doesn't offend me and I have a tough time wondering why that would violate interviewing etiquette. |
It just does. Unless the figure or range is posted on the advertisement, or unless the employer directs candidates to a link for a range of values, etiquette stands that you should be interested in other aspects of the job more than the money, at least initially. Asking about money up front is bad taste and suggests that you are not interested in doing a good job or in explaining what you bring to the table, but only in how much you can bank. |
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jiyu
Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies.Well my situatoin is that I have been asked to travel to Osaka for an interview (which is what I mean by shortlisted). This would be at my own expense which is considerable, so I'd like to know if t's worth the investment.
The position is for a specially appointed Associate Professor (fixed term renewable contract but not a tenured position), and I'm 40 years old. Any ideas what the salary range would be for this? |
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