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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:27 am Post subject: |
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The word "standardized" means what we have been saying for a few posts now. That is, there is a formula. What you don't seem to accept is that this formula has variables for people:
age
married or single status
number of kids
where you live within the city
commuting costs
etc.. |
As you also know, there are far more variables than just this. I have in my lap a copy of the 大学職員給与規則 (Regulations Regarding University Employee Salaries) for this national university. It is 56 pages long--half graphs/charts, half explanations of the various graphs/charts. E.g., does Shimokitazawa's colleague know the impact on starting salary if your prior work experience was at a public university? How about if it was at another national university? How about a private university? I sincerely doubt it!
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| My Department Head and another professor were there for the signing of my contract and so are aware of our salaries. This is not unusual. |
I would say that it is unusual. |
I agree with Glenski. Shimokitazawa, my guess from the above description is that you are a contract (term-limited) hire working at a private university. Non contract (i.e., Japanese equivalent, permanent) hires do not receive "contracts" per se. Instead, they receive a jirei stating just their rank and starting date. Usually, there is no salary information included, though one can figure one's salary out by finding the appropriate columns on the appropriate charts using the 職 and 級 information on the jirei itself. Moreover, at least at national universities, there is no contract signing ceremony(!). Instead, new faculty (from all departments) usually have to show up for something called a jirei koufushiki, where somebody in administration hands out the jirei to everyone attending.
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| Frankly, asking about salary doesn't offend me and I have a tough time wondering why that would violate interviewing etiquette. |
Because people get very upset if you get the figures wrong--and with 56 pages of regulations to read/master before one can answer correctly, you're going to get the figures wrong. |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| jiyu wrote: |
Thanks for the replies.Well my situatoin is that I have been asked to travel to Osaka for an interview (which is what I mean by shortlisted). This would be at my own expense which is considerable, so I'd like to know if t's worth the investment.
The position is for a specially appointed Associate Professor (fixed term renewable contract but not a tenured position), and I'm 40 years old. Any ideas what the salary range would be for this? |
What's the Japanese version of your job title? I.e., if you're non permanent, the term "Associate Professor" tells us nothing--I've met/seen so-called "Full Professors" whose actual (in Japanese) status/rank was listed as a lowly instructor (kyoushi).
That said, and with the added caveat that non permanent faculty hires are sometimes on a completely different salary scale, you'll most likely be getting between 5.7 million and 6.7 million yen per year. |
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jiyu
Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| The Japanese title for the position is tokunin junkyoju. Six million sounds very low. |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| jiyu wrote: |
| Six million sounds very low. |
Then don't go to the darn interview! 
Are you married? Do you have a PhD? Do you have kids? Do you have a significant amount of university-level work experience? Are you currently working at a national university? These kinds of things will raise your starting salary. If you can answer yes to most of these questions, your salary will be around 6.7 million (maybe even 7 million). If your answer to each of these questions is no, however, then your salary is going to be about 6 million yen (maybe even less as you'll be tokunin). Seriously, you saw the salary chart I provided, right? You've read the discussion on this thread as well, right? Given the paucity of information you've provided, I think I've given you a pretty accurate salary range.
Thanks for demonstrating, by the way, why people don't give out salary information beforehand. Shimokitazawa, now imagine having to have this same conversation with 100+ applicants, followed by anger/nitpicking if you're off by a few yen!
Last edited by taikibansei on Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:49 am Post subject: |
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You ask if it's "worth going" to the interview. That in itself sounds like you are only interested in the money, and even if you aren't, you shouldn't sound like this. It will come off in the interview and in the way you ask about the salary.
5.7-6.7 million yen sounds low?
Osaka U (according to wikipedia) is a national university. Trust me. That's pretty darn spot on. I looked up a similar sounding position on JRECIN:
http://jrecin.jst.go.jp/seek/SeekJorDetail?fn=0&ln=1&id=D110110462&ln_jor=1
It has a range listed as (when converted from monthly, and not taking into account any bonuses) 5.7 - 7.1 million yen. So, taikibansei is right again. No surprise there.
You only give us your age, so how can we mere mortals on a discussion forum (even with taikibansei's 56-page document in hand) tell you more than the figures cited (from our experience, mind you). The way you said the figure sounds low could be interpreted either as you are disappointed in reality, or that you don't believe us. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but give us a break on trying to tell you any exact figure without knowing more than your age.
You asked if it was "worth it" to attend the interview. Again, how are we to know your personal situation? Are you unemployed now and desperately seeking work, or are you bouncing from another uni job, or whatever else? One might ask in return, is it worth NOT going and having a perfectly zero chance of being accepted? |
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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 458
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| taikibansei wrote: |
| jiyu wrote: |
| Six million sounds very low. |
Then don't go to the darn interview!
Are you married? Do you have a PhD? Do you have kids? Do you have a significant amount of university-level work experience? Are you currently working at a national university? These kinds of things will raise your starting salary. If you can answer yes to most of these questions, your salary will be around 6.7 million (maybe even 7 million). If your answer to each of these questions is no, however, then your salary is going to be about 6 million yen (maybe even less as you'll be tokunin). Seriously, you saw the salary chart I provided, right? You've read the discussion on this thread as well, right? Given the paucity of information you've provided, I think I've given you a pretty accurate salary range.
Thanks for demonstrating, by the way, why people don't give out salary information beforehand. Shimokitazawa, now imagine having to have this same conversation with 100+ applicants, followed by anger/nitpicking if you're off by a few yen! |
What you're saying is very confusing.
On one hand, you are saying that they don't know the salary range. Then, on the other hand, you are giving a salary range (although for national universities) and yet you are, in you last line, implying that it is very accurate.
The bottom line is that, yes, the Chair in my interview could have given me a rough idea of what the salary would be based on all of the criteria listed above. Instead, they chose to keep a secret.
Again, I've had these conversations with people at work and we have come to the conclusion that it is pretty obvious what the salary scales are at national universities.
Also, 6 million yen is too low for someone at 40. You should be looking at more around the 8 million yen a year, with bonuses. |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| What you're saying is very confusing. |
Uh, okay.
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| On one hand, you are saying that they don't know the salary range. Then, on the other hand, you are giving a salary range (although for national universities) and yet you are, in you last line, implying that it is very accurate. |
Could this be--wait for it--because I just happen to be a junkyouju in my 40s working at a national university? Nah....
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| The bottom line is that, yes, the Chair in my interview could have given me a rough idea of what the salary would be based on all of the criteria listed above. Instead, they chose to keep a secret. |
Yeah, it's all one big plot....
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| Again, I've had these conversations with people at work and we have come to the conclusion that it is pretty obvious what the salary scales are at national universities. |
Then, uh, why am I the only one in this thread providing links to salary scales...?
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| Also, 6 million yen is too low for someone at 40. You should be looking at more around the 8 million yen a year, with bonuses. |
A tokunin junkyouju at a national university getting 8 million in base salary at the age of 40? With salaries having gone down the last two years? Good luck with that! 
Oh, and they don't usually give bonuses to tokunin. E.g., from the Osaka University link that Glenski so kindly provided:
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| (4) Commuting allowance, dependent allowance, bonus, travel expenses for returning home will not be provided. |
OP, again, if you answer yes to most of those questions in my last post, you'll get about a 6.7 million yen base salary. On top of this, and despite what the Osaka University link above says, I do believe you'll qualify for at least some additional allowances, and maybe get at least a partial bonus as well. (You'll want to get written clarification of this before signing anything.) Your call if that's enough for you.
Good luck! |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Shimokitazawa wrote: |
| On one hand, you are saying that they don't know the salary range. |
We're telling you (at least I am, can't speak for taikibansei) that your interviewers will likely not know. Admin will. But you aren't going to deal with admin until you sign the contract.
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| Then, on the other hand, you are giving a salary range |
An average one from the government, which takes into account a plethora of information (almost none of which you have provided us here).
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| (although for national universities) |
Isn't that what was asked for?
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| and yet you are, in you last line, implying that it is very accurate. |
No, you inferred that. He probably meant that if you take a figure or range from one of your interviewers, you may not actually get a figure or range that is accurate. Caveat emptor.
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| The bottom line is that, yes, the Chair in my interview could have given me a rough idea of what the salary would be based on all of the criteria listed above. Instead, they chose to keep a secret. |
So, are you saying that you have asked already even before the interview? Now it's my turn to get confused here?
And, it's not a "secret". Just bad form to ask before you've been given a job offer. Isn't that the stage you are in right now?
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| Again, I've had these conversations with people at work and we have come to the conclusion that it is pretty obvious what the salary scales are at national universities. |
Taikibansei showed you the salary average for a few ages. Beyond that age group and any other of many circumstances, your "people at work" (whoever that is) couldn't be any more accurate. |
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tcatsninfan
Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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I keep coming back to this thread and it keeps getting more and more insane. All I see is someone who is trying to get information that just isn't available.
Actually, this thread reminds me a lot of Abbott and Costello's "Who's on first?" joke: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who%27s_on_First%3F |
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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 458
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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Here is the irony.
I claim that the Chair and committee could give me a rough estimate of compensation.
Takibansei says it can't be done.
However, at the same time, Takibansei posts specific information on salary ranges and what one can expect to earn given certain criteria at a national university.
Another poster here has provided links for private university salaries.
The bottom line is: Teachers know, whether they are teaching at private universities or national universities, what the salary scales are.
So, for a Chair or Dept. Head to state that they don't know anything about compensation for the position is ridiculous. |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| tcatsninfan wrote: |
| I keep coming back to this thread and it keeps getting more and more insane. All I see is someone who is trying to get information that just isn't available. |
Actually, the really insane thing is that the salary information appears to have been in the original advert as well:
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| 1) The monthly salary may vary from 477,850yen (minimum) to 591,775yen (maximum). The exact amount will be determined in accordance with the applicant's qualifications and experience. |
I.e., that link Glenski found is for a tokunin junkyouju (Specially Appointed Associate Professor) position at Osaka University--all the same as the OP. I really doubt that Osaka University would, in the same hiring season, post the tokunin junkyouju salary scale in only some tokunin junkyouju adverts and not others. Moreover, I really can't see there being multiple salary scales for multiple types of tokunin junkyouju positions at the same national university...which means that the OP most likely had access to the salary from the beginning (and just didn't like it)...and that this thread (like so many others here) was a complete waste of time.
Hope you enjoyed the entertainment! |
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jiyu
Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting that a simple question could get such emotional responses. Well here's some information if you thought my initial request was cryptic.
I work at a reputable Australian university and I have a tenured position. I am looking for a job in a different country to get a new experience AND to make more money (taxes are very high in Australia).
The job advert did not have the salary posted. They just said treatment according to university regulations or something like that. I checked the online regulations but they're all in Japanese. This is why I posted my question.
A colleague has just taken up a full professor position at Temple University in Tokyo and he's being paid 12 million. One of my PhD students is from Japan and before coming to do his PhD he had as Associate Professor at Oburin University and got paid 10 million. He didn't have a PhD and I am now his supervisor.This is why I said 6 million sounds very low. Going from Australia to Japan for the interview would cots me about Australian $2,000.
Some more information: I have a PhD, extensive university teaching experience and several publications (including 4 books). I have no dependents.
It is evident, from what you tell me, that national universities are a no-go for someone in my situation.
Thanks for the responses. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| jiyu wrote: |
| The job advert did not have the salary posted. They just said treatment according to university regulations or something like that. I checked the online regulations but they're all in Japanese. This is why I posted my question. |
Perhaps if you had linked us to these, people who can read Japanese might have been able to give you an answer in just one post instead of several pages of wasted time.
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| A colleague has just taken up a full professor position at Temple University in Tokyo and he's being paid 12 million. One of my PhD students is from Japan and before coming to do his PhD he had as Associate Professor at Oburin University and got paid 10 million. He didn't have a PhD and I am now his supervisor. |
Apples and oranges. Temple is not a national university. Neither is Obirin. And, there are often cases where Japanese get paid more than foreigners. Besides, your student's position at Obirin is not the same as the one you are applying for. Also, once again you have decided to omit valuable information (about your "colleague"), so there is no way to compare even if it were possible based on the type of position.
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| This is why I said 6 million sounds very low. Going from Australia to Japan for the interview would cots me about Australian $2,000. |
I would guess that you knew it was going to cost you that much no matter what the salary. Are you really justified in complaining?
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| Some more information: I have a PhD, extensive university teaching experience and several publications (including 4 books). I have no dependents. |
Just so you know, books are usually not really counted very high in the ladder when universities here look at publications. Single-authored peer-reviewed journal articles are usually at the top. Books (are you single author?) rank a few rungs below. It also depends on what the books actually are. Also, just so you know (and you should really read the links in the FAQ stickies about universities), a PhD needs to be in a certain field for most uni jobs here, but we can't say anything about yours because you have decided again not to divulge your major.
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| It is evident, from what you tell me, that national universities are a no-go for someone in my situation. |
If you had researched JRECIN for average salaries in national unis you might have come to this conclusion months ago on your own. Here's a list in case you didn't already look this up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_national_university |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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I've sent jiyu a pm with more details, but I left a tenured university position in my home country to return to Japan--though only because I found a position with tenure here.
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| It is evident, from what you tell me, that national universities are a no-go for someone in my situation. |
No, tokunin positions (glorified adjunct positions with capped base salaries and little to no bonuses/added allowances) are a no-go for someone in your situation. I mean, seriously, the search committee at Osaka University must have been doing back-flips of joy when your application arrived--you would have been among the most qualified in your department...and yet the least paid.
I could understand somebody without tenure taking such a position--say, to get one's foot in the door--but not someone in your situation. With your qualifications, and assuming you have even minimal Japanese ability, you should be looking for tenured kyouju (full professor) positions--which pay a million yen more a year at the absolute minimum. Difficult to find from overseas, but they do exist. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| taikibansei wrote: |
| I could understand somebody without tenure taking such a position--say, to get one's foot in the door--but not someone in your situation. With your qualifications, and assuming you have even minimal Japanese ability, you should be looking for tenured kyouju (full professor) positions--which pay a million yen more a year at the absolute minimum. Difficult to find from overseas, but they do exist. |
"Difficult" to say the least. And, that's another reason to have already been in Japan -- aside from often needing teaching experience in Japan -- so that the cost of attending an interview isn't so overwhelming.
Don't know what you told him in that PM, but for others, realize that tenured positions in university nowadays are pretty rare. Also, expect to apply to a few dozen places before you get enough interviews to convert into acceptance offers. |
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