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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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 Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
| Professor wrote: |
| Phil_K wrote: |
to reach a high level it's necessary to understand grammar |
I have to disagree with this statement. Yes grammar is important but if one studies ONLY grammar, they will NEVER be able to speak a second language fluently.
Just my 2 cents.  |
I never advocated ONLY grammar, but (for example) does anyone here use the subjunctive perfectly in Spanish, having only learnt it through practice? |
I use it fairly frequently and the way I learned was having seen it in use by other people, so I picked up on it and use it myself in similar contexts. |
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Professor
Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 449
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
How about some examples, then I'll be able to evalute them and add my approval or criticism. |
Examples that explicit teaching of grammar doesn't get students over that pre-intermediate hump?
Here's an example for you Phil. The community college in Texas where I taught for Three years was FULL of students who could explain ANY GRAMMAR QUESTION one could throw at them and yet they were unable to carry on a decent CONVERSATION.
If asked they would tell you that their whole belief in learning another language is to ONLY focus on the grammar and then the speaking would come naturally. One could never get that idea out of their heads no matter what.
If they were able to speak English they would have no trouble teaching a grammar class at Harvard. My classes always had students from all over the world and they all seemed to believe that they only needed grammar to learn how to speak.
All of the teachers at that college had this same problem. They also wanted to follow and finish the book no matter what. The result? People with EXCELLENT knowledge of English grammar yet could not carry on a simple conversation. Another example is right here in Mexico City. Many of the students I have had here told me they had gone through many of the language schools and still were UNABLE to SPEAK. Why? Many of the schools here cover TOO MANY topics and follow a book RELIGIOUSLY. Result? More people who know grammar but can't carry on a simple conversation.
I knew a Linguistic at SMU who has been studying languages for close to 50 years now and he told me...in order to SPEAK a language you have to SPEAK the language. But what does he know, right? He's only been a Linguistic for close to 50 years and speaks MANY languages fluently. |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| Phil_K wrote: |
| Professor wrote: |
| Phil_K wrote: |
to reach a high level it's necessary to understand grammar |
I have to disagree with this statement. Yes grammar is important but if one studies ONLY grammar, they will NEVER be able to speak a second language fluently.
Just my 2 cents. |
I never advocated ONLY grammar, but (for example) does anyone here use the subjunctive perfectly in Spanish, having only learnt it through practice? |
I use it fairly frequently and the way I learned was having seen it in use by other people, so I picked up on it and use it myself in similar contexts. |
Hmmm, so you know what the subjunctive is then - doesn't hurt to know through a few five-minute sessions in class. QED |
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Professor
Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 449
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
I never advocated ONLY grammar |
Sorry Phil, didn't mean for it to sound that way. Don't hate me.  |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| .in order to SPEAK a language you have to SPEAK the language. But what does he know, right? |
I wholeheartedly agree with the Honorable Gentleman - there is precisely 1 hour 25 minutes of the class left to do that. |
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Professor
Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 449
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
I wholeheartedly agree with the Honorable Gentleman - there is precisely 1 hour 25 minutes of the class left to do that. |
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Enchilada Potosina
Joined: 03 Aug 2010
Posts: 344
Location: Mexico
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
| Quote: |
| .in order to SPEAK a language you have to SPEAK the language. But what does he know, right? |
I wholeheartedly agree with the Honorable Gentleman - there is precisely 1 hour 25 minutes of the class left to do that. |
... if your students' attention span is greater than 8 minutes... listening is so overlooked here. Why can't students just listen to a language naturally without having to do some ridiculous ear-straining comprehension exercise? I tell them, you know the more you listen, the more you understand, there's no way to avoid it. Also, speaking is all well and good but how are you going to take part in a conversation you don't understand?
Yes that's nice teacher but please continue explaining English grammar in English so we can pass the test. |
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mejms
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Enchilada Potosina wrote: |
| Phil_K wrote: |
| Quote: |
| .in order to SPEAK a language you have to SPEAK the language. But what does he know, right? |
I wholeheartedly agree with the Honorable Gentleman - there is precisely 1 hour 25 minutes of the class left to do that. |
... if your students' attention span is greater than 8 minutes... listening is so overlooked here. Why can't students just listen to a language naturally without having to do some ridiculous ear-straining comprehension exercise? I tell them, you know the more you listen, the more you understand, there's no way to avoid it. Also, speaking is all well and good but how are you going to take part in a conversation you don't understand?
Yes that's nice teacher but please continue explaining English grammar in English so we can pass the test. |
Since I don't work for anyone but myself, I don't need to fuss about helping students pass tests. My students love doing videos, for instance. Why is it that in the real world we use videos, interactive media, conference calls, etc., but English class consists of CDs and text books? Obsolete if you ask me.
The challenge I generally face is finding realia (videos, articles, etc) that is appropriate for my students' level, ESPECIALLY if my students are low-level. I agree with Enchilada about using natural materials rather than listening exercises, but there's a huge gap between low-level learners of the language and what fluent speakers actually do. With higher level students, there's no issue. |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| The challenge I generally face is finding realia (videos, articles, etc) that is appropriate for my students' level, ESPECIALLY if my students are low-level. |
This, together with what EP says about learning from listening is the other part of the equation; we have to encourage our students to use all the resources they have available outside class. Maybe not just encourage, but make it part of the evalution of the course. Sounds a bit extreme, I know, but if a student isn't prepared to do that, I can only think that he really doesn't want to be able to speak English. |
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Professor
Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 449
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Enchilada Potosina wrote: |
Why can't students just listen to a language naturally without having to do some ridiculous ear-straining comprehension exercise? |
I have no idea. In Texas where I taught, they wanted to follow the book RELIGIOUSLY. No teacher!!!! Don't deviate from the book!!! Bad things will happen! The world will end!!!
We don't care about creativity, just follow the book!!! Finish the book this semester teacher or we won't understand the next level!!! Ohhh nooo!!! 
That was Texas students in the ESL program at the community college where I taught. Nice area. Rich people. Educated people. Go figure. It seems like that mentality is alive and well in Mexico City to a degree. Not AS bad as Texas but close. |
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Professor
Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 449
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| mejms wrote: |
Since I don't work for anyone but myself, I don't need to fuss about helping students pass tests. My students love doing videos, for instance. Why is it that in the real world we use videos, interactive media, conference calls, etc., but English class consists of CDs and text books?
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Well, if one is working for one of the laguage schools here in Mexico, they have no choice but to follow the book, have them listen to a video with UNNATURAL ENGLISH CONVERSATIONS, and grade their verbal ability based on listening to two students ask and answer questions to each other in English for a few minutes.
However, if one is in your situation mejms, they could be more CREATIVE. How about setting aside some time to actually call some of your students and talk with them that way.
I had many who LOVED to do that because they were going to be having a conference call with a group from the States and they wanted to practice talking with me and listening to my voice over the phone. |
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Professor
Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 449
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
we have to encourage our students to use all the resources they have available outside class. Maybe not just encourage, but make it part of the evalution of the course. Sounds a bit extreme, I know, but if a student isn't prepared to do that, I can only think that he really doesn't want to be able to speak English. |
EXCELLENT idea Phil!! Think I'll use it.  |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| I am reading other contributions with interest, and from that, maybe I can conclude that we have to mix what we know (or think we know!) are the best methods of actually getting students to SPEAK English, relating the topics we cover to their work and/or interests, and appealling to their attitude of learning (ingrained from the far-from-perfect Mexican school system). I think my last suggestion certainly addresses the last point! |
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Enchilada Potosina
Joined: 03 Aug 2010
Posts: 344
Location: Mexico
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| Professor wrote: |
| Phil_K wrote: |
we have to encourage our students to use all the resources they have available outside class. Maybe not just encourage, but make it part of the evalution of the course. Sounds a bit extreme, I know, but if a student isn't prepared to do that, I can only think that he really doesn't want to be able to speak English. |
EXCELLENT idea Phil!! Think I'll use it. |
It's worth spending some time de-brainwashing them. If you come in with a fancy grammer-less method and dare to actually expose them to the language they tend to go crazy. They know you're right. They know they need to be able to understand and participate in a conversation. They know real communication is not about filling in the gaps but you can see it in their eyes - they want grammar and lots of it. I have some students that are so good at grammar (but can't speak for toffee), if they ever wanted to get out of the engineering slave trade, they could easily become English teachers. |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Enchilada Potosina wrote: |
| Phil_K wrote: |
| Quote: |
| .in order to SPEAK a language you have to SPEAK the language. But what does he know, right? |
I wholeheartedly agree with the Honorable Gentleman - there is precisely 1 hour 25 minutes of the class left to do that. |
... if your students' attention span is greater than 8 minutes... listening is so overlooked here. Why can't students just listen to a language naturally without having to do some ridiculous ear-straining comprehension exercise? I tell them, you know the more you listen, the more you understand, there's no way to avoid it. Also, speaking is all well and good but how are you going to take part in a conversation you don't understand?
Yes that's nice teacher but please continue explaining English grammar in English so we can pass the test. |
Think outside the box (or book, as the case may be).
I have often used the readily available EFL magazines which come with CD's and practice exercises, all ready to go. Ss get to listen, read and discuss the articles. Several different English accents are represented in each issue. |
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