Job Discussion Forums

[ciaranm]

Hi All.

I work for an Australian institution looking to deliver hospitality course with an ESL component in Vietnam, Ho Chi Minh to be exact.

I am looking for comments and opinions from teachers and also people who have hired teachers.

I understand that pay rates vary dramatically by institution and teacher's experience, but what sort of salaries are thrown around in HCM? What would be the lower and higher end of the salary scale?

What are the standard terms of employment (conditions, benefits, bonuses, hours per week etc)?

Do teachers often work on a casual or part-time basis, or full-time?

What is the usual hiring process for foreign teachers in Vietnam?

In general how easy is it to find ESl teachers? What about the availability of hospitality lecturers with hotel/restaurant management experience?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

[toiyeuthitmeo]

Low end salary for a tourist/backpacker with no certification and no college degree would be $10-$15 /hr. Expect the quality of teaching and results to be quite poor.

A fresh-faced youngster one or two years out of Uni with a certification and little or no teaching experience could be had for $15-$17 / hr.

Once you get into looking at people who've been teaching 2, 3 or more years, with degree and certification, they (should) be holding out for $20-$25 / hour. Unfortunately some will work for less and drive down wages for the rest of us

Throw in a Master's degree, a degree in Education or relevant teaching credential, and a person with 5 or more years of experience, they can find work in Saigon over $25 / hour.

Most people in Saigon who consider themselves experienced teachers would call anything under $18 / hour too low, and would be happy in the $20-$30 range.

Hours vary dramatically, with some teachers picking up a handful of hours across several different schools. A typical "full time" schedule is usually 20-30 hours of classroom time aka "contact hours." Teachers that like to save money and work their butts off will often find extra work and may work over 40 contact hours a week, but that is hard work and takes a special sort of person.

In terms of conditions, teachers will do a good job and lessons will go well if you make a nice range or resources and materials available. The minimum would be computers, internet access, audio-visual devices, a printer, photocopy machine, whiteboards, and decent climate control. A good Vietnamese staff to deal with students is also a huge plus. Add in a decent collection of resource books, good text book selection, a support system of senior teachers or a manager with the ability to assist lesson planning, then you should have a great situation.

Health insurance if relatively rare for ESL here, but I'm sure your employees would love it!

Bonuses are most often done as signing and completion of contract bonuses, with some schools occasionally giving holiday bonuses. Some schools also go out of their way to organize social events, outings, etc for their teachers. Perhaps not needed but it does get you points for employee morale.

There are more ESL teachers than we know what to do with, and you'll have no shortage of interest provided you offer a decent opportunity.

[ciaranm]

toiyeuthitmeo, thanks for your comprehensive answer! That's just what I was looking for.

In regards to teachers spreading hours across multiple jobs, how does this work in regards to work permits? Is this allowed?

I have seen numerous posts about work permits and it seems that the onus is on the schools to keep the documents, work permits etc. What would be the acceptable level of records kept by a school? How is this managed by authorities? I understand that inconsistency is prevalent, however I am looking for best practice advice.

Thanks again.

[toiyeuthitmeo]

There is loads of stuff about work permit issues on this forum, some from people more informed than I, so give the postings a bit of a search if you get a chance.

With regards to working for several schools / companies / private students at one time, it is a "gray area" that few people encounter difficulty with. As far as I know, and please someone kick in with any horror stories, no teachers have been deported for working at two schools. But is it "allowed"? Hard to say...but tons of folks are doing it.

Arguably a bit more of a "risky" gray area is the need to have a work permit at all. I'm very glad that I have one, and most foreign workers in Vietnam will feel likewise, but it is not unheard of (perhaps even commonplace) for teachers to simply work where they can find hours or the best conditions / pay, and if the school chooses not to assist with a work permit, they just get a new visa every three months, which is easy enough to do.

From the perspective of a person opening a new school, why not attempt the official route and actually get your teachers permits? Although it could be a bureaucratic nightmare involving loads of paperwork, it will lend to a certain peace of mind. I would suggest that your company handle this or assist your employees. Without knowledge of Vietnamese language, government office locations, specific documents, and follow-up contacts, it can be a nightmare for a lone teacher to sort out.

Ultimately it would be the company more so than the employee who would face sanctions for failing to have permitted employees, but I've yet to hear of any schools being shut down for this. Anyone else?

Technically, the company should collect authenticated criminal background checks, authenticated/official degrees, transcripts, certifications, or relevant job qualification documents, an acceptable medical check (usually must be done in Vietnam), contact/living arrangement info, and passport/visa info. The actual real documents will need to be sent to the authorities for a work permit or temporary residency card, then your company should keep copies on file and return all originals to the employee. The company should keep the actual work permit document on hand, as that is the policy and it is really of no use to the employee as work permits are only issued specific to a single employer.

A more complicated issue, and one that I thankfully know very little about, is the Personal Income Tax, which nearly all foreign workers in Vietnam are meant to pay, and which your company, assuming they are on the "up and up," will be responsible for deducting and paying to the authorities from each month's wages in accordance with the tax code. Are there some teachers getting tax-free wages? Getting paid in cash under the table? Are there schools who are avoiding PIT? Yes. But this is one area where I'd really err on the side of caution, and try to go through all the official channels.

Cheers

[ciaranm]

Thanks again for your detailed response. I appreciate it.

I will continue to read through these forums as they have been quite helpful, although I must say the search function is highly frustrating to use!

One last question on work permits... Are they transferable between companies? Or is a new work permit required for each job a teacher works?

[barkwood]

You can find detailed information on the new work permit rules here:
http://www.hkbav.org/pdf/Kevin_Presentation_R.pdf. [/url]
I am a hospitality lecturer and have done this in Saigon for a year. Leave me a message for any other information you may need.

[ciaranm]

Thanks for the link. That is exactly what I needed!

As a hospitality lecturer, what the general employment terms you work under? And what are the approximate accepted pay rates for hospitality lecturers?

Thanks again.

[barkwood]

Send me an email. It is not the same as ESL teacher salary rates. You are blending ESL and Hospitality which may reduce rates some. But I also have a recent MA in Education from the US and 30 years of hospitality experience.

[deadlift]

These generalisations are based on my own (admittedly limited) experience and discussions with other teachers.

A crappy school will pay around $15, require evening and weekend work, on schedules that they change on a whim. They won't offer enough hours to get by on, meaning you'll need to take additional job. They won't do anything to help you get a WP or visa extensions, and will basically take any opportunity to shaft you. They'll deduct taxes from your paycheck, but it sure as hell won't be getting paid to the tax department. The Vietnamese support staff will be indifferent and often will be barely able to speak English. Will employ people with no specific teaching experience or qualifications. You may have to wear an ugly bright red polo shirt, or garish McDonalds-esque tie.

A good school will pay between $18-22, on time. Schedules will be reasonably reliable, but still will involve evening work and weekend kiddies lessons. They will generally give you enough hours, but you may still want to supplement with a part-time job. They'll provide sound advice on how to get a WP, but it will still be largely up to you to get it done. You can feel much more secure in your contract. Vietnamese staff can still be annoyingly inefficient. A bachelors and a CELTA or whatever are needed here.

A very good school will pay upwards of $25, up to around $32. Schedules will vary from time to time, but in general you will have a firm timetable for the length of the term/semester/whatever. You may need to work in the early evening, but probably not weekends. You'll earn enough not to need extra work, and may have to sign an exclusivity clause. The school will basically look after the WP and visa processes for you, doing as much if the process as they are able to, and paying for it, including health checks, notarisation and so on. Health insurance could be provided, along with some other perks (Vietnamese lessons, housing assistance, bank accounts set up etc) Vietnamese staff will be of a higher standard, though miscommunication and misunderstandings are inevitable.
They generally require more experience or higher qualifications. They may provide for professional development, and you may be able to pursue some kind of specialisation.

Again, this is my experience. Let me know if I'm wrong. If I am, I guess I can count myself very lucky, because the bulk of my experience is in the third category.

[VietCanada]

[hot_rock]

Good post deadlift

[Oh My God]

[VietCanada]

[ciaranm]

[ciaranm]