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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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 Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Isla Guapa wrote: |
| mejms wrote: |
| This is not a self-motivated, disciplined culture, focused on making progress. The truth is classes and activities have to be social while tying in form and substance. |
That's a rather broad statement. My private students certainly don't fit into that mold. They are adults with busy schedules and still find time to come to class for a couple of hours a week and even do homework on occasion! |
I think as well as only wanting the best teachers, I only want the best students too, but I'm willing to be a bit mercenary on that point!  |
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mejms
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Isla Guapa wrote: |
| mejms wrote: |
| This is not a self-motivated, disciplined culture, focused on making progress. The truth is classes and activities have to be social while tying in form and substance. |
That's a rather broad statement. My private students certainly don't fit into that mold. They are adults with busy schedules and still find time to come to class for a couple of hours a week and even do homework on occasion! |
You're right, that was pretty heavy-handed. There are enough motivated, earnest students to fill a private teacher's schedule, sure. To found a business on city's market of such people however requires reading the culture as a whole to see what people want and what will work. There will always be exceptions, but you don't want to just count on exceptions. We've got evaluate and make pointed judgements to make a business, which is what Phil was talking about. |
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Isla Guapa
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1520
Location: Mexico City o sea La Gran Manzana Mexicana
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Mejms, I wonder if you've worked in countries where the culture is more goal-motivated than you think is the case in Mexico, somewhere in East Asia perhaps? |
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mejms
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Isla Guapa wrote: |
| Mejms, I wonder if you've worked in countries where the culture is more goal-motivated than you think is the case in Mexico, somewhere in East Asia perhaps? |
I've only taught in the US and in Mexico, but a case in point would be the failure of Wall Street Institute to develop here. No doubt mismanagement was a huge issue in their failure, but their almost strictly multimedia, open and flexible schedule, and independent courses (if you're not familiar with their system, I would need to explain more) was not a recipe for success here.
The fact that Mexico isn't like East Asia in terms of discipline isn't good or bad. It's just Mexico. I'm happy here. But these are basic realities that one has to consider when developing a product or service for this market. You have to use critical judgement. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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I'd always wondered if Wall Street street problems were mostly related to their franchise model than anything else. WSJ seemed to switch hands a lot and the owners I've met over the years always seemed more concerned with the bottom line (surprise surprise) and tinkering with the huge volume of data the WSI system uses for tracking student enrollment.
Last edited by Guy Courchesne on Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mejms
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| I'd always wondered if Wall Street street problems were mostly related to their franchise model than anything else. WSJ seemed to switch hands a lot and the owner I've met over the years always seemed more concerned with the bottom line (surprise surprise) and tinkering with the huge volume of data the WSI system uses for tracking student enrollment. |
I did a brief stint with Wall Street before they went under.
Yes, there were huge problems with management, not the least of which was opening center after center regardless of student enrollment. But Wall Street's exclusive multimedia system that offered very little conversation and social interaction was never destined to be big in Mexico. 75% of your time as a student is spent in front of the computer, 15% in front of a book, and 10% with a teacher. I mention this as an extreme example how you have to consider your immediate market. Wall Street is a big deal in Asia, as I've heard. The cultures are a world apart.
So as we speak about strong business models and the problems that language schools typically face, weighing exactly it is that people here want in learning a language should be at the top of that list. |
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Isla Guapa
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1520
Location: Mexico City o sea La Gran Manzana Mexicana
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm not Mexican and let me tell you that I wouldn't want to pay good money to a language school to spend most of my time in front of a computer screen. The Wall Street method sounds pretty bogus to me. I wonder if its success in Asia has more to do with company profits than with the success of its customers in learning the language. |
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jaimem-g
Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 85
Location: The Desert, CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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Ah yes, but you are still a romantic at heart(as in Romance languages), Isla.
There is a strong movement here in California to move in that direction, mostly computerized instruction, in public adult classes due to the severe cuts (about 50%) to adult school funding. It will be interesting to see if Asian ESL students fare better with this model vs. Hispanic ESL students.
Mexicans are interested in technology but they do seem to prefer human contact - especially important in oral communication. I think the key would always be that the person have some background or comprehensible input first. |
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Isla Guapa
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1520
Location: Mexico City o sea La Gran Manzana Mexicana
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| jaimem-g wrote: |
Ah yes, but you are still a romantic at heart(as in Romance languages), Isla.
There is a strong movement here in California to move in that direction, mostly computerized instruction, in public adult classes due to the severe cuts (about 50%) to adult school funding. It will be interesting to see if Asian ESL students fare better with this model vs. Hispanic ESL students.
Mexicans are interested in technology but they do seem to prefer human contact - especially important in oral communication. I think the key would always be that the person have some background or comprehensible input first. |
Very cute pun, jaime  . Actually, at heart I'm a mixture of Russian, American Jewish, and a bit of honorary Mexican.
No doubt highly-motivated adults with some background in English who feel comfortable dealing with computers could learn something from a computer-based program, but there's no way a machine can replace the human interaction that takes place in the classroom or in tutoring sessions. And it's this interaction that lies at the core of successful language learning! |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| No doubt highly-motivated adults with some background in English who feel comfortable dealing with computers could learn something from a computer-based program, but there's no way a machine can replace the human interaction that takes place in the classroom or in tutoring sessions. And it's this interaction that lies at the core of successful language learning! |
Just to play devil's advocate here, I think the kids coming up now are going to change this view 180 degrees. Technologies like facebook, IM, blackberries, and so forth are already the primary communication tools used in the real world. The norm is rapidly changing and classroom and tutoring expectations are changing with it. I bet Phil has some ideas on this... |
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Isla Guapa
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1520
Location: Mexico City o sea La Gran Manzana Mexicana
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| Guy, in his post jaimem-g was talking about adult education classes in California, and my comments were related to that population, which would be primarily made up of adult immigrants to the States, if I'm not mistaken. Most likely they would not be members of the Facebook generation, who do seem to be more comfortable communicating online than in person. |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:01 am Post subject: |
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...well as it happens
I think the point Guy makes is a valid one. These things have to be brought into the equation, but as Isla says, not at the expense of human interaction, but rather as a complement. (And not just the kids - company executives are already there!). Uploading assignments via Edmodo, video student portfolios.... STOP! I'm giving away all my secrets here! |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
...well as it happens
I think the point Guy makes is a valid one. These things have to be brought into the equation, but as Isla says, not at the expense of human interaction, but rather as a complement. (And not just the kids - company executives are already there!). Uploading assignments via Edmodo, video student portfolios.... STOP! I'm giving away all my secrets here! |
Ah an Edmodo fan now...
Nothing replaces human to human interaction of course...but the medium between the two humans (and how many humans at once) is where the changes have been happening. I also say this after spending a few hours in a Canadian Best Buy store so I'm on a sort of electronics sugar rush. Giddy |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| BTW Guy, going back to my original post - what about a few ideas for good conversation? (real conversation in your own words!) |
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mejms
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
| BTW Guy, going back to my original post - what about a few ideas for good conversation? (real conversation in your own words!) |
I'm going to mention something here that some people might see as a silly issue: the forced nature of having to speak for a one hour class.
I've learned Spanish by being in different situations where I spoke. Sometimes quick questions for directions, sometimes long discussions at a party. I spoke when I needed to get information or when I wanted to know something or when people wanted to speak with me. I didn't speak at a particular time every day.
I don't know if anyone else has this problem, but I don't think I'm all that great at small talk (a huge pitfall for a language teacher!). I get it done, but often lack the patience to draw more out of the conversation if the other person- the student- is slow to bring up topics. To have to sit down from 8am-9:30pm and start talking just isn't a natural way to be exposed to a language. There are so many issues that arise. What if the person is tired? What if he doesn't feel like talking? What if he wants to talk about something completely unrelated? In life and over the course of the day, we have the freedom in Mexico to practice our Spanish in virtually any situation and at any time.
The challenge for me is to rework the wheel so that English practice in the form of classes is more relevant and sustainable. Students often get tired of the 1 hour class 3 days a week, but they never get tired of Two and a Half Men! Role-plays come to mind as a way to simulate these spontaneous, real-life experiences I mention, but I think being in the confines of the classroom day in and day out is psychological warefare for the student trying to apply this skill to his whole life. He wants to be outside and immersed in the language. We keep him locked up. |
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