Job Discussion Forums

[The Mad Hatter]

Deadlift makes some good points, he shows that indeed it is not at all easy to thrive here, one can eat street food, which is a novelty I agree, and certainly there is a lot to awe and explore for the uninitiated. But one can only eat water boiled rice-flour noodles and boiled meat, for just so long until one craves more sustaining and filling food. The practice of daily eating at outdoor stalls is somewhat risky and one will encounter stomach ailments quite frequently from eating vegetables washed in this unsterile water. Having a big meal for "under a 100 k" ( which is 5 usd we should add although that will most likely change soon also) is very doubtful and to do so means you would be eating in rather rustic places with small plastic chairs-sitting on black oil stained sidewalks, where rats can run under the table, or lizards on the walls . It's interesting and rewarding but it isnt what the average teacher ends up doing day in and day out. Add to this that you must carefully check your bill for add ons and other charges. I routinely go through 300,000 a day and this is not hard to do when a good latte costs 60,000 = $3 . Yesterday I had brunch at the Refinery ( a medium nice place) for 175,000= $8 So a lot of this staying under 5$ or over is going to fluctuate ( higher) Deadlift also makes a great point that the backpacker area is not really a pleasant place to go eat because it is has gotten very expensive and the food is not that great.
The figure of being paid up to $32 is simply not true. I have a teachers license from the states and have never been offered this much even at chain high schools its only $17 to $20 before taxes. I just worked at an elite business school and got only $19 after taxes. Only someone teaching something obscure and in high demand such as a specialist for a particular type of business courses with a very limited schedule of hours would make such a wage. Ive never met anyone who does. The highest paid work is with a contract at RMIT and that starts around 24 and very hard to get. The real teaching work ranges from $13- $18 . Even good teachers have to supplement their income at "backpacker schools" like Duong Minh on occasion. Its hard to get a complete schedule of hours, and if one doesnt take all the hours one is offered at say VUS they will drop you from the schedule. Likewise ILA doesnt allow you to work anywhere else. None of these kinds of demands were being made when I first came here, because they have gotten more audacious in their demands on teachers. Those with proper credentials make 15 to 18 at international schools such as AHS.
yes its true you can get a better deal on a room if you live like at college and share with other expat teachers , who may up and leave at any time, since there is no guarantee they will have hours to stay at any employer , or they may be forced out of vietnam by the rigorous visa requirements as so many have had to do recently. You will have to pay a deposit of several months, which is almost never repaid by local landlords, and it is the practice of landlords these days to ask for a deposit of up to four months, with three months being routine. I had one tell me recently that if I paid a year up front I would be able to avoid giving a six month deposit. Which is silly because she would keep the deposit anyway. You as a renter are supposed to balk and bargain, and if you like that sort of thing be my guest, just remember they are much better at driving a hard bargain than we are and they tend to believe all westerners are rich. Your school wont assist you in this process except possibly to refer you to an agent, and if you quit an agent they get upset too. Deadlift mentions you can get a lovely house, which is true, but you will have to buy your own washing machine or refrigerator more often than not, and then it becomes a problem to sell them if you want to go home. Just take a look at the sale boards at CHis cafe and see all the ads for appliances. I dont mean to say its not an adventure, but you should come here with both eyes wide open and not expect anyone to lift a finger to help you. There is a lot to be had, but no school will help find a house, and other expats will most likely be far across town in traffic and unable to work closely with you while you explore and try to find a place to live etc. there will , however, be no shortage of locals who will offer to help you- just something to think about. Again- do come here, its cheaper than at home, you can experience challenges, but the happy fat times are temporarily stalled, if not over.

[deadlift]

Food: Nonsense.

You equate "not eating at western places " to "eating in the gutter". Many quans are very clean and comfortable, and you'd have to really try to spend more than 100k. You can get a lot more than boiled noodles and boiled meat. The Refinery is definitely not a "medium". Lizards on the walls is hardly something to be disgusted about.

Money: Also nonsense.

Casual teachers at RMIT earn $32 per hour to start. Those on a full time salary receive in the region of $3,500 per month. The venerable British Council pays over $30. ILA starts at $17.25, and any degree of experience or something nice on your CV will see you bumped up the pay scale to $18 or higher. It didn't take much effort from my friend to get above $20 at another, similar language mill. I believe that ACET starts at above $20 and goes over $30. I've turned down numerous local university jobs at $20 per hour, and one at $25.


If you got $19 at your "elite" business school, it wasn't really that elite, sorry.

Housing: I won't say nonsense, but let's just say "your mileage may vary". The Mad Hatter has obviously been burned, but I and those I know haven't. *shrug* Most houses let to foreigners will have appliances and some will be fully-furnished.

[Dish Washer]

I'm going to have to agree with The Mad Hatter on this topic.

The cost of living has increased significantly.

Food is NOT cheap in Vietnam.

The market has hit the ceiling and in my estimates there is about 2 years left max before it becomes only worthwhile for the downtrodden to teach, pay for rent and food and beer on a plastic chair, and then leave.

The golden days of EFL in Vietnam are long gone.

[motown]

The market has hit the ceiling and in my estimates there is about 2 years left max before it becomes only worthwhile for the downtrodden to teach, pay for rent and food and beer on a plastic chair, and then leave.

The golden days of EFL in Vietnam are long gone.[/quote]
========================================

From reading this and other forums the Golden Age of EFL is long gone in all Asian countries.
According to some more than half of all teachers leave Korea and China after one year. Is it much better anywhere else????
So before you change to Plan B consider what you can do to stay in Vietnam as the grass is not greener elsewhere in Asia.

[snollygoster]

I must second the opinions of Deadlift when it comes to salary rates.
Sure it may take a little while for employers to see the value you bring but once you are "noticed" you can move out of the $15-$20 range quite quickly- That area is only a survival range and the good teacher who knows his/her stuff isnt there for long.
I regularly place teachers- starters that is- in $20+ jobs.

As to the comments about food- The only thing I add is that the food in the north is bland compared to the south-
Sure there are lizards on the wall in the south- This is the tropics and where I originally came from is also in the tropics and we dont see lizards as being a particularly disturbing type of dining company.
Rats- well- ummm- yeah- they are there-more visible maybe than in the west.
Hygiene? Do you really think that changing the style of food from Bun Cha to Pizza will guarantee any increase in hygiene standards? A "nice": chair with a tablecloth on the table makes it look good, but it wont change the hygiene standard.
The locals survive and I doubt they have porcelain stomachs or any other anatomical differences to westerners- so there is no reason westerners cant eat local food. A friend of mine got food poisoning from an Italian Restaurant in Australia! Its a risk we all have to run, no matter where we are.

Coming to Vietnam is an adventure, and those who are not prepared to engage in that adventure need to examine their intentions for coming here-It will never be like "back home". To the locals, this IS "back home" where everything is better- just like YOUR "back home" is better.

Housing? Such a varied topic-Another time.

[The Mad Hatter]

[snollygoster]

I wont comment about food, restaurants housing etc because these are private perceptions, but if Mad Hatter would like to talk with teachers who have been placed at $20 hr or higher, then Mad Hatter please pm me and I will ask those teachers if they are prepared to talk with you. No guarantees, but whilst you seem to have a lot to say on the negative side, I have only what I know to be true to say.

I grant that the "golden days" of rampant salaries compared to living costs are tightening up, but for good teachers there are still a few gems left. Maybe I have been simply lucky to know them, but they are there.

How long they will still be there is another question.

[deadlift]

I have never argued that people should survive on local food. I have never stated that people should live like monks. I do neither of those. I simply objected to the misrepresentation of local food as bland, unhygienic gutter food. Whether local food is to your taste or not, it's a fact that the comments about boiled meat and rats and so on are demonstrably false.

[Oh My God]

[seamallowance]

After ten years in Vietnam, I would suggest that there's more than just a bit of frustration and job-burnout.
That would explain why he is trying repeatedly trying to harsh our mellow.

[Mr. Kalgukshi]

Discussing the message is fine as long as it stays within the ToS and board policies. Discussing the messenger is not fine and needs to end very quickly before this thread is no longer available and sanctions are issued.

[ajc19810]

I thought hanging at PNL was slumming it.

I like the posts from Mad Hatter as it gives a different and very real look into the ESL world for many of the ESL teachers out there. What MH posts is certainly a reality for many out there.

SG is right there are a few gems out there, but not everybody has access to them.

The prices in Vietnam have increased, there is no doubting that. Personally I wouldn't mind, if there was an increase in standards, but there hasn't been. I'm not just talking about food, but all facets of life in Vietnam. Its time for the country to at least attempt to give the consumer what they pay for. If not revert to the old dodgy Vietnam that I love so much.

Each time i am in Vietnam I find myself living more and more like the Vietnamese, not because i think its better but because there is no point paying more for something that will be just as ordinary as if you had of bought it from the bottom shelf.

You can make reasonable money in Vietnam, but at the end of the day that money is really very small comparatively speaking.

BTW I cant think of anything worse than eating western food in Vietnam as they have no idea how to cook it.

[The Mad Hatter]

I wish others like deadlift would not quote me as saying words I haven't such as "in the gutter" to make what Im saying seem less credible. I never said gutter. But for all intents - most local food is in places which are less than sanitary . Its not an exaggeration to say unsanitary conditions here when most expats get diarrhea from salads or food about once a season. Even locals eat a deworming pill, fugacar twice a year . I just had mine last week. Are teachers ready for stuff like this? Do you tell them when you paint a rosey picture to recruit ? : Raw vegetables for salad and to put in bun thit nuong are rinsed in local tap water which is not potable.
Ok Cha gio- deadlift was right. sorry- on careful rereading he is talking about boiled rice noodles which have shrimp or boiled pork thrown in and rolled in rice paper, and then deep fried. fried egg rolls.
I thought he meant Cha lua, or Cha. The dish he's saying he had is boiled fermented rice noodles with some grilled meat which is good, but again. you cant live off this stuff and ex pat teachers usually eat more.
Theres two kinds of food here: boiled of fried. This is not biased language to describe this place's food as boiled. the national dish - Pho and the many other kinds of soups and noodles are just that. This is normal breakfast, lunch and dinner food here. IE: bland. You come here get ready to sip and slurp noodles. Im not saying live like a monk but you have to keep your head down and in your dish , The fare tends to splash and fall off your spoon and chopsticks. Spoons here are made of cheap tin, and often can cut your lip.
I guess there is no reason to have to clarify technical minutia about whether a place is a quan or a street stall. Im just saying lets clarify for people what they will have available when they come here. A storefront made of concrete with hard stone or polished floors. Thats the most common type of eatery. The front is open to the air the whole store front is open like a garage door size, Then there are irregular rickety metal tables and blue plastic chairs to sit on which extend onto the sidewalk. There arent gutters here. The sidewalk is often oily dusty and blends into the street. In general there is a sooty, black patina over everything.
Often the boiling soup kettle is outside. If you want a nicer one with ac - sure but you pay more.
Torn tissues thrown on the ground, bones at your feet. You might see someone eating out of a trash can near you, who is hungry. I see this about once a month. Once at Lotteria last week some kids ran in and were hanging about our table, then grabbed the eaten chicken bones to chew on and ran off. Astonishing!! More details for you to tell prospective teachers instead of the rosey picture. thats all Im saying. You will want to eat at home, and cook something more substantial, -or just cook your own food. That leads to another problem, unfortunately you should tell prospective teachers to say good bye to any and all home cooking for the duration. Your affordable hotel or rental room will not have cooking facilities. Unless you are prepared to shell out three months deposit on a house with at least three bedrooms, there is no kitchen. So you will have to buy all your food, three meals a day. You want a good burger, Bernies or Black cat, or Mogumbo- that will be more like a 150,000 for the burger. What about breakfast ? If you want to make a sandwich all you will get is white colon block bread with extra sugar in it. Whole wheat is expensive and hard to find and often has sugar. A good whole wheat can be found at Hamn Nhi street for $3 and the loaf is tiny , with 1/4 size slices.
Western food at Viet restaurants in the neighboorhoods has small portions and full of sugra. Examploe spagetti-= they use local sweet ketchup[ for sauce. All Im saying is you shoudl give a balanced picture.
Snolly goster if you think RMIT pays $32 an hour but dont mention that they require you to stay onsite several other unpaid hours to prepare, and they make you sign and agreement to not work anywhere else it starts looking a little less renumerated doesnt it?
I worked for $25 and hour at a business school , but similarily, I had to spend lots iof unpaid time correcting papers and preparing. .There are huge unannounced gaps in courses and employment. 6 weeks off, 3 weeks off. That kind of thing.
Painting a rosy picture of it here. That was dubious before, but now with recent changes its quite irresponsible . They dont see how the lesser schools are starting to take over the market share. The Duong Minhs, the Elites and the smaller shabbier type schools are getting a lot of teachers coming to work at them. While wages at higher schools are going down. We may think we deserve 25 an hour, but locals who attend schools that pay teachers only 15- 18 think , that those are expensive schools.

[tonyjones01]

MH is right on and I can�t see how someone can argue with what he has said. You may not mind living in the conditions he describes but you cannot say his description is wrong.

[haller_79]

I don't think there is much 'truth' in implying the food is hazardous to your health. After one year I never got sick once, had the runs for a short time at first but that's it. Food in Vietnam is a highlight, if you've lost the ability to enjoy it you're pretty much done.