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TeresaLopez
Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 601
Location: Mexico City
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 Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Isla Guapa wrote: |
I think what you're calling indirect questions are just a way of being polite. How have you come to the conclusion that their use is atypical for Spanish speakers? Have you done a survey of their use (or non-use) in all the Spanish-speaking countries in the world? I�ll bet that their use varies from place to place within Mexico, though it's true that I have facts to back up this assertion.  |
I think it is very difficult to make such a sweeping statement about all Spanish speakers, or even all Mexicans. Being Bi-lingual doesn�t give you insight into other cultures. I�m Bi-lingual as well (and half Mexican) and I wouldn�t presume to speak for cultures I haven�t spent a lot of time living in, or at least interacting with a large number of people from that country. I was just in Cuba last month, and Cubans are pretty different culturally than Mexicans. I had a lot of Cuban friends in college and they were often mystified by Mexicans. I�ve even seen variations of this in different parts of Mexico, and in small towns as opposed to large towns within Mexico. |
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Isla Guapa
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1520
Location: Mexico City o sea La Gran Manzana Mexicana
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| fieldsofbarley wrote: |
You can interpret it as as way of being "polite", however she�s linking it to the fact that these countries have a high percentage of indigenous people and these expressions could be remainders of a "servile" attitude forced by the arrival of the Spaniards.
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It seems a stretch to me to attribute certain speech patterns in modern Mexican Spanish entirely or principally to the percentage of indigenous peoples in Mexico and social patterns prominent in the Colonial period. The indigenous element in Mexico is much more marked in certain areas than in others, so if her thesis is correct, then the speech patterns she is studying should be more prominent in those parts of the country with stronger indigenous influence. I wonder if your friend began her study with this thesis in mind, or if it grew out of her research. It sounds very interesting, but I�m not convinced of its validity. Has she done work in Paraguay which has a high percentage of indigenous people and two official languages, Spanish and Guaran�? |
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TeresaLopez
Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 601
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Also, there will be differences based on education levels and social class, so she would have to get a cross section of the population. It does sound like an interesting project, but also it seems to me that the scope of something like that would require a team of researchers, working for years. |
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Isla Guapa
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1520
Location: Mexico City o sea La Gran Manzana Mexicana
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| TeresaLopez wrote: |
| Also, there will be differences based on education levels and social class, so she would have to get a cross section of the population. It does sound like an interesting project, but also it seems to me that the scope of something like that would require a team of researchers, working for years. |
I was thinking the same thing, Teresa, that language use is as dependent on education and social class as it is on native country. I wonder if the use of the so-called indirect question changes when Mexicans move to the US. It's quite a project for a single M.A. candidate to carry off well. |
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MotherF
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1450
Location: 17�48'N 97�46'W
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Being bilingual and in a position where I speak with Mexicans from a broad range of educational backgrounds everyday. PhDs to people who didn't finish primary school I also find those sorts of generalizations way too sweeping to be useful. I also interact with people who are very adept at modifying their own language to suit their interlocutor. People who are used to speaking to people from other countries or people with different educational backgrounds. The amount of hedging one does in those situations change. First and formost, people want to be understood--and so will be more direct when they percieve the need to be--and will be less direct when they percieve a benefit can be achieved by being so. |
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TeresaLopez
Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 601
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| MotherF wrote: |
I also interact with people who are very adept at modifying their own language to suit their interlocutor. People who are used to speaking to people from other countries or people with different educational backgrounds.
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Excellent point. I noticed this a lot when I was in Cuba. When I was interacting with people who were around tourists a lot I noticed that had a very different accent than those who I encountered when I went off by myself. I had one encounter with a waiter who I am still not convinced spoke Spanish, he was that hard to understand. One the bus from the airport to the hotel the tour guide was giving us an overview of Havana, and would even say how something would be said in Cuba and then say, in Mexico, of course, you say XYZ. But I also know professionals who grew up in more humble areas, and when they are around family or friends they grew up with are totally different people. Who knows how they would answer such a questionaire. It is a fascinating topic though, but there are so many cultural and linguistic nuances it seems like the same would have to be very large to get any kind of meaningful pattern. And you know what they say about statistics - statistics are like a bikini what they reveal is interesting, what they conveal is essential. And, I have seen the same data used to �prove� both sides of an arguement, just focused and presented differently. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| One the bus from the airport to the hotel |
Cogieron la wawa al hotel?  or worse...el camello
I had a hard time with Cuban street Spanish, but clerks and tour guides were more intelligible. |
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Isla Guapa
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1520
Location: Mexico City o sea La Gran Manzana Mexicana
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Taking this fascinating topic into English, I recall two times that I visited an English friend from northern England (near the Lancashire-Yorkshire border), I had no trouble understanding her when we were talking, but when we got together with her friends and they were chattering away, I could hardly make out what they were talking about! And her ten-year-old daughter once asked her, "Mummy, why are you talking posh to Marsha?" (I was the Marsha in question.) |
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TeresaLopez
Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 601
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| One the bus from the airport to the hotel |
Cogieron la wawa al hotel? or worse...el camello
I had a hard time with Cuban street Spanish, but clerks and tour guides were more intelligible. |
hehe That�s pretty good. I am familiar with Cuban Spanish from having a lot of Cuban friends, so the vocabulary wasn�t an issue. But I encountered a few accents................but as you said, I think people who deal with tourists modify both their accent and the words they use around tourists, but probably switch back to the way they normally speak otherwise, as MotherF mentioned. |
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Isla Guapa
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1520
Location: Mexico City o sea La Gran Manzana Mexicana
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| One the bus from the airport to the hotel |
Cogieron la wawa al hotel? or worse...el camello
I had a hard time with Cuban street Spanish, but clerks and tour guides were more intelligible. |
Apart from the amusing dilemma of different vocabulary for common words, I can rarely understand Cuban Spanish because it goes so fast! and cuts off the ends of words much more than Mexican Spanish does.
P.S. Guy, I love your quasi-phonetic rendering of "bus" in Cuban, but that should be "guagua". |
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TeresaLopez
Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 601
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| And Australians! I love Australians, I think in general they are non-pretentious, open-minded and friendly people, but what language do they speak??!! It takes a bit to get the hang of it, with people from the countryside being harder to understand than people from cities. One of the companies I give classes in does a lot of business with companies in Australia, and even my very advanced students have problems understanding them. |
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PlayadelSoul
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Playa del Carmen
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| TeresaLopez wrote: |
| And Australians! I love Australians, I think in general they are non-pretentious, open-minded and friendly people, but what language do they speak??!! It takes a bit to get the hang of it, with people from the countryside being harder to understand than people from cities. One of the companies I give classes in does a lot of business with companies in Australia, and even my very advanced students have problems understanding them. |
I work with an Australian teacher. When she first stated, a student came to me and said she wanted a native speaker, not someone whose native language was German. I guess she thought my teacher wsa from Austria. LOL
In any event, she is a great teacher and does change her manner of speaking in front of the class. In the staff room, I am sometimes lost on the vocabulary she uses. That's a good thing, however, as it helps me expand my knowledge of Australian English. Never know when I might need it. |
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