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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| sistercream wrote: |
As someone (like most contributors on these boards I guess) who comes from a society which values linear thinking and deductive logic, it took me years to get my head around the fact that these concepts hardly even figure in Chinese culture/ education. Once you realise that the people you are working with simply don't use the thought patterns that we regard as normal, it gets easier even while it remains baffling  |
As baffling as the message is. Absolutely!
Now, it's interesting to say "normal", when you are trying to teach English or any other subjects in English on mainland China. My observation is that it may have to do with a developed curriculum and/or approach to education rather than the "culture/education". 
On the end, it has to be explained by those recruiters, doesn't it? Or, is it ever? They are so shy to tell you. If you have too many questions, you may lose that fine opportunity to work in a local "culture/education". |
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nickpellatt
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
With respect I feel the OP is overintellectualising the situaton that he/she will encounter.
So much of your energy will be taken up with just living and getting yourself to class and making something happen for the students.
The kids know the system is crap and will appreciate an effective teacher who practises a student-centred approach and treats them as collaborators not subjects, Chinese teachers do.
They will in time effect change - it's beyond us (FTs) to do it. |
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Good post, especially the first sentence.
I have enjoyed reading the comments and thoughts on this thread. Its also quite evident that we often point the finger at employers, FAOs, administrators and school owners for the shortcomings of the system, and I will admit there are many.
But ... If a new board member rocks up, and post here saying 'I have no related qualifications, no genuine teaching experience, and an online certificate and I want to take a year out to experience China' we normally offer useful advice, tell them to lie on a resume (or bend the truth a little) and tell them opportunities are abound. Is it a wonder the employers dont take the Ft seriously, when many FTs dont take EFL seriously?
Perhaps change could start with the FT? In my last China training centre job one of the Chinese teachers told me (in confidence) that most of the Chinese staff didnt rate the FT's because they knew that they had very little knowledge of grammar, and didnt understand things like IPA. I've had student comment on this too.
The Chinese teacher said to me 'If you wanted to learn Chinese, how serious would you take a Chinese teacher if they didnt know pinyin and didnt understand tones?'.
I do think its a two way street, and we can also start raising our standards. Just a thought, and probably/possibly not a popular one!  |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| nickpellatt wrote: |
| Perhaps change could start with the FT? In my last China training centre job one of the Chinese teachers told me (in confidence) that most of the Chinese staff didnt rate the FT's because they knew that they had very little knowledge of grammar, and didnt understand things like IPA. I've had student comment on this too. |
this may be (probably is) true for many FTs in China. But the fact is most FTs are hired to teach oral English, facilitate the use of colloquial or idiomatic English, instill confidence in the students to actually use the language. Grammar is one of the functions of the Chinese English teacher, so if the student's grammar sucks (and theoretically it shouldn't because they have grammar lessons all through middle school) then you know who to call.
everyone - teachers, students, schools, anyone with a job, should improve their knowledge and raise their standards at their workplace, at least with respect to whatever is in their job description. unfortunately a lot of people settle for mediocrity. |
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nickpellatt
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Doesnt matter what you're teaching. Grammar and IPA (and many other elements of EFL) still have their place in a class for colloquial language use, or can still be used effectively in a class where the teachers main role is to facilitate conversation.
The idea that is was/is the responsibility of the Chinese teacher doesnt hold much weight with me TBH, and its the kind of line that is often used (by us) and shows why FTs and the work they do arent taken seriously (by some employers etc). Chinese teachers teach grammar, yes. I guess almost all non-native teachers teach grammar to students from beginner levels up, but I believe the role of the FT is to teach students to use grammar effectively and accurately. Using grammar is different to teaching grammar.
I cant really imagine an oral class where grammar isnt used? Without grammar we wouldnt have speech that made any sense, so being aware of the grammar and helping students to use it and follow some of the foundations that underpin language use are essential in any class IMO. How can it not be?
If for example, you understand the rules the govern the formation of comparative forms you can help your students in 'facilitated conversations' use the language correctly and/or more effectively. Rather than just saying 'we dont say more prettier, we just say prettier', you can illustrate and remind students of the 'why', reinforcing the grammar lessons from the local teachers and by tackling the problem at its foundation, the student is less likely (in theory) to keep repeating the error. Surely this cant be debated right?
So what Im saying is if we as teachers continue to bury our heads in the sand, not learn the nuts and bolts of language teaching, and ignore the learning tools that many students have used for a long time (such as IPA) and hide behind the 'I dont need to/I just have conversation classes' its not wonder the powers that be dont take us serious.
I agree with your last sentence 100% by the way. Learning more about what we do and how we do it is vital! |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:56 am Post subject: |
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I�ll respond to this from the perspective of someone teaching English majors.
| nickpellatt wrote: |
Doesnt matter what you're teaching. Grammar and IPA (and many other elements of EFL) still have their place in a class for colloquial language use, or can still be used effectively in a class where the teachers main role is to facilitate conversation.
The idea that is was/is the responsibility of the Chinese teacher doesnt hold much weight with me TBH, and its the kind of line that is often used (by us) and shows why FTs and the work they do arent taken seriously (by some employers etc). Chinese teachers teach grammar, yes. I guess almost all non-native teachers teach grammar to students from beginner levels up, but I believe the role of the FT is to teach students to use grammar effectively and accurately. Using grammar is different to teaching grammar.
I cant really imagine an oral class where grammar isnt used? Without grammar we wouldnt have speech that made any sense, so being aware of the grammar and helping students to use it and follow some of the foundations that underpin language use are essential in any class IMO. How can it not be? |
Of course grammar is used in class. But the teacher can assume the student has a half decent grasp on grammar by the time they reach university because if they don't the student shouldn�t be there. I�ve done my own study of the most frequent grammar mistakes Chinese students make with a view to understanding why they make these mistakes over and over. I discovered that 90% of the errors all students make (and they all make the same errors) are in four areas:
1. articles;
2. past tense;
3. singular and plural
4. Choosing the right verb. One Chinese verb 看 covers a range of actions where in English there could be four, and Chinese students inevitably choose the wrong verb. There are several examples of this and teachers can assist students in knowing which verb describes which action. This does require some knowledge of Mandarin on the part of the oral English teacher however.
FTs with a very basic grounding in English grammar (and most FTs I�ve come across can at least deal with 1, 2, and 3) can correct these errors with little difficulty. Even if they don't the student's meaning is still understood. While some grammar correction by the FT can be useful it should be very limited as there�s a Chinese teacher to do the more complicated material.
It seems most of your posts on this topic are written from the perspective of someone who�s been teaching classes of 4-6 highly motivated students with weak skills, many of whom are no longer in school and therefore have no dedicated grammar teacher. This certainly isn't the norm in China (weaker skills among non-English majors excepted). The majority of oral English teachers in Chinese middle schools and universities simply don�t have the time to dwell on grammar too much.
| nickpellatt wrote: |
| If for example, you understand the rules the govern the formation of comparative forms you can help your students in 'facilitated conversations' use the language correctly and/or more effectively. Rather than just saying 'we dont say more prettier, we just say prettier', you can illustrate and remind students of the 'why', reinforcing the grammar lessons from the local teachers and by tackling the problem at its foundation, the student is less likely (in theory) to keep repeating the error. Surely this cant be debated right? |
The main obstacle facing the oral English teacher is not bad grammar - it's getting the students to speak. It�s where Chinese students are weakest and this is job 1. I don�t teach oral English any longer but when I did my philosophy was that if the student can speak and be understood (mistakes or no mistakes) there was minimal grammar (and other) correction. Some minor correcting after the fact is fine but correcting too much usually only inhibits the student further and interrupts the flow. It was the same philosophy my language professors followed when I was a language student and it worked for me.
Further, if a teacher can make their students aware of such things as peer-correction and self-correction then the task becomes easier � the English majors I�ve worked with had no qualms about correcting one another. The last thing Chinese students want or need in their oral English class is to be lectured further on grammar by yet another teacher. They�ve had enough of it already.
Incidentally I just finished chatting with a former (Chinese) student who's now in England studying. One of her classes is a discussion class with a local teacher and I asked her thoughts on the role of grammar correction in a discussion class. She claimed the teacher there never corrects their grammar as it doesn't affect the understanding of what the student said and this keeps the class flowing smoothly and on topic (much what I wrote above). She also pointed out the students are happy with this. You may see this as dereliction of duty on the part of the teacher but as long as the students are talking, in english, the objective has been achieved.
| nickpellatt wrote: |
Perhaps change could start with the FT? In my last China training centre job one of the Chinese teachers told me (in confidence) that most of the Chinese staff didnt rate the FT's because they knew that they had very little knowledge of grammar, and didnt understand things like IPA. I've had student comment on this too.
I do think its a two way street, and we can also start raising our standards. Just a thought, and probably/possibly not a popular one! |
Fair enough but here's my take on this comment.
First, most students in an oral English class don't care if the FT is a grammar expert or not. They don't even care if the FT has a degree or any kind of further education at all (Have polled them on these issues and this is what I was told). What they do care about is being able to discuss something of interest in the class and walk out of there at the end of the day knowing more than before they went in. Success depends on how engaged the students are in the chosen topic of discussion. But if by chance a FT wants his/her class rated as a snoozefest, then spending time on grammar is one way to achieve that.
Second, Chinese textbooks are notorious for being riddled with errors (I use one of them). Chinese teachers often (always?) teach to the textbook, upon which their exam is based, and to hell with any errors. if it's in the book it must be right. Students occasionally come to me with questions from their practice exercises in other classes where the multiple choice answer is clearly wrong, yet the Chinese teacher insists it's correct. I'll provide my answer and back my position up (depending on the question) either by using the grammar book by Murphy or with my expertise as a native English speaker and someone who knows the culture. Then there are the local English teachers who can't (or won't) speak English. You might want to remind your anonymous Chinese teacher friends to step up their game as well because they sometimes don't rate too highly either.
Over to someone else now. |
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mike w
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1071
Location: Beijing building site
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| but when I did my philosophy was that if the student can speak and be understood (mistakes or no mistakes) there was minimal grammar (and other) correction. Some minor correcting after the fact is fine but correcting too much usually only inhibits the student further and interrupts the flow. |
| Quote: |
| She claimed the teacher there never corrects their grammar as it doesn't affect the understanding of what the student said and this keeps the class flowing smoothly and on topic (much what I wrote above). She also pointed out the students are happy with this. You may see this as dereliction of duty on the part of the teacher but as long as the students are talking, in english, the objective has been achieved. |
Totally agree with both of the above. An English major needs to strive for perfect English. Do you know anyone who speaks perfect English?
For your average student, their aim is to be able to communicate and be understood using the English language. This doesn't require perfect English. |
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nickpellatt
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| But if by chance a FT wants his/her class rated as a snoozefest, then spending time on grammar is one way to achieve that. |
TBH, this type of comment, and a previous one about lecturing grammar, are ones that kinda support my view, not detract from it. Modern communicative language teaching techniques do not involve grammar lectures and snoozefests, CELTA/DELTA/MA Tesol courses dont prescribe, or subscribe to the above either. Popular EFL authors would also state the exact opposite too, the Scott Thornbury 'How to' series springs to mind, as does something as basic as 'Learning Teaching' by Scrivener. What I think is yes, quite often the powers that be dont take us seriously, but quite often, we dont take our industry seriously either, and keep up to date with modern techniques/literature and training, suggesting we dont need it, or its not our role in China. I do think its a two way street...I really do. |
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KayuJati
Joined: 21 Feb 2010
Posts: 313
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| wildgander wrote: |
sistercream brings up a new point for me to consider. What about my assumptions as an American (westerner?) about thinking. How does this differ from my Chinese administrators, colleagues, and students? What should I be looking for? or what experiences have others had in China with this?
Thanks,
Wildgander |
Yeah, this topic finally got interesting.
Having been around the "Asian" mind-set for ~20 years, I would have to question how serious your school was when they asked you for advice. My experience is that the people in my schools were not that serious when they asked me for advice. In fact, I realised later that maybe they just wanted to see if I was going to criticise them and the school.
You might want to check this book out. I found it very useful.
The Geography of Thought : How Asians and Westerners Think Differently....and Why, by Richard E. Nisbett |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:45 am Post subject: |
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So, out of so many students on mainland, how many can possibly communicate well in the language with FTs? Then, how many of your local coworkers, that've studied English for ages, can possibly handle a bit longer social exchange? Nodding heads is probably the best way you can get along. Seriously, in this country, there's a really low English language learners percentage that are over the intermediate level and few are either independant or proficient users.
Let's face it. We are "guests" in the country, and we get paid. Why would we want to stir up some educational unrests, when we can enjoy our lives nodding our heads and placating whenever the sh*t smells. Then, blaming some cultural differences would be one of the nice ways to say learning English in L2 is more than adequate.
On the end, we can even attract more of head nodders and even teach them how to placate better.
Good luck to all in the field! |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:18 am Post subject: |
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As always, my contributions vary quite a bit from most on this board as I teach at the primary school level, but here goes:
The other day my Chinese co-teacher was taking pictures of students as they were holding up various end-of-semester awards they had been given. One student was smiling proudly as the camera clicked away. "What is that award for?" I asked him. "For good English," he replied. ????WTYKW???? (What the you-know-what?) This kid gets Cs and Ds on most of his reading comprehension tests, and his writing is riddled with grammar errors. When he has to answer a question out loud, his spoken English isn't all that much better as well. Don't get me wrong, love the kid and he has a great personality, but English . . . ??? Not so much.
What he was holding was an award for the English portion of the exam all the students took a few weeks before that qualified them to get into Junior Middle School. After more probing questions I found out that he did score on the low end of the acceptance scale . . . yet he got an "attaboy" certificate for it anyway. I'm all for stroking egos and making students feel good about themselves, but I just had to shake my head at this whole scenario.
Now before some of you know-it-alls start blaming the teacher for his poor English skills, keep in mind a majority of his peers are doing VERY well in all of my classes (you know, especially considering they are only in 6th grade) but he's one who's not quite yet cutting the mustard in his English studies. Hope he improves in Junior Middle School. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Recruiting teachers somehow seems to be similar to recruiting or examining students on mainland. The local theory appears to be that if you are willing to show a loyalty and obedience without questions. you may as well get your chances.  |
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wildgander
Joined: 21 Mar 2010
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps as a result of similar economic impacts on child rearing it seems to me that the young people in China are as self centered and insensitive as the young in the States. Has anyone else encountered this? Have an idea of why? Yes, I am over generalizing here. It's not the entire generation but it does stand out in that generation.
My experience in the United States was that people were a lot more helpful towards new comers that I am experiencing in China. Again is this unusual or do others see it this way also?
I am once again looking for some insights, any insights, into this.
Wildgander |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| a lot more helpful towards new comers |
Today, my two little and tired kids and i looked for a subway/metro entrance in Guangzhou. We asked three different workers/security personnal in uniforms on the street. All, somehow abruptly, pointed in the same direction to walk, and then all came short of answering our question of how far/how long it was to get to it. No, it was not a "misunderstanding". We ended up walking for more than ten minutes. Had we known it was that far we would've taken a taxi to it. All three of us are/look foreign as we are. Were they surprised we spoke Chinese? Or, did they give us the same treatment as they give their own just because we spoke Chinese? This may be something about the local culture that i will probably never understand. Sometimes, they are so, or too, helpful, but sometimes they are so unbelievably unhelpful that not even a few bucks can help you.
So, how do such stories apply to recruiting of FTs? Well, i don't believe they get much better understanding when inquiring about the jobs, do they? Forgive me if i am wrong however. Should we believe their fine administrative work goes way beyond their local bounaries? Should we believe they want the ones that ask more questions? Should we believe they chose the right candidates? Or, what's right anyway  |
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TexasHighway
Joined: 03 Dec 2005
Posts: 779
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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IgorG wrote:
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| All, somehow abruptly, pointed in the same direction to walk, and then all came short of answering our question of how far/how long it was to get to it |
I don't think it mattered that you speak Chinese or even that you are a foreigner. After asking a Chinese for direction, sometimes they will pucker up and point with their face in a general direction while making a kissing sound. As you said, they can be helpful to the point of being obnoxious even insisting on walking you to your destination. Or they can be stunningly abrupt and unhelpful. Recruiters often just point you to a school and couldn't care less what the consequences are, as long as they get their commission. |
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dmocha
Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: "experience of TEFL in China doesn't count for much |
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| auchtermuchty wrote: |
| wildgander wrote: |
How is that done? What countries weigh highly and are there other countries like China that don't seem to be highly regarded? |
Yes, Korea. In fact, probably most Asian countries. It's well known in the TEFL/TESL world that China has low standards/lack of professionalism, at least in terms of teaching English. |
When I moved from Korea to Japan the Japanese ignored my Korean experience. When I moved from Japan to Canada the Canadians were mildly interested in my international experience. Once I had 'Canadian experience' things picked up marginally. But most of the work in Canada is part-time, temporary, contract type work. So I don't think working in China is a problem just because it was China; other factors come into play. I've never heard of a rating system or rankiing system.
Last edited by dmocha on Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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