Job Discussion Forums

[Vesuve]

Recently in HCMC there was a major staff reduction at a large, renown language center. I was lucky in that I was not among the casualties.

Not wanting to name the school, it's a 4-letter acronym: first letter starts with the first letter of the alphabet. The last letter is the 20th letter of the alphabet.

This would not normally be an issue, but the fact that a large and well established language center layed-off 10 teachers is a reason to look at the entire EFL market in not only HCMC, but in Hanoi, which has recently experienced the same.

This same school in Hanoi, recently layed-off several teachers. Most were part-time, and some were full-time.

Reason: reduced enrollments. It's simply, too slow.

Wages were also cut. Meaning, the same long-term teachers are working the same job, with the same seniority,at the company, for less.

At a different school in Hanoi, that is large, well-established: 2 letter acronym, named with both of the same letters being the 12th letter of the alphabet, things have also made a turn south.

At these two schools and all over town, the Adult GE is very weak, and declining. The main market now is kids, followed by teens. the only way full time teachers are getting their hourly quota is to do kids and teens. Fair enough. Corporates are fading away. The Corporate department has recently been giving teachers in its corporate department teenager classes.

The point of this thread is to ask, as a long-termer here:

Is this a sign of things to come?

At this time, schools in Hanoi and HCMC have been the slowest they've ever been, since I've been here.

Have we reached a turning point? Should I ride this out and stay, or move on?

Any comments are welcome.

[LettersAthruZ]

Honestly?? Give it three months, and then see. Things here (ESPECIALLY in the kids/teens market) really crank up hard in the summer, and by mid-May, you can usually have a pretty good indication as to what is what. USUALLY, this is simply an annual cyclical occurrence.....this year, though? I'm not sure....

Given that it's one week before Tet, nothing is going to move, nobody is going to hire and it's going to be slow until early/mid-March! Hell, I've had a few Tay friends of mine take off early from school (last week) for three week holidays in Indonesia with the blessing of the admin.

Yeah, there have been reductions in HCMC, and there are a few happening in Ha Noi, but HCMC for about two years or so has been vastly over-saturated with foreign EFL instructors....and, whilst Ha Noi is not at that point YET, it's getting there.

Your Da Nangs and your Hai Phongs and your Provinces are pretty much thee only remaining places that don't have to worry about an over-saturation of Tay in their schools and centers, which in Ha Noi and HCMC is starting to bring a downward pressure on wages and salaries in our genre.

I really don't see an end to this until the economic situation is Europe and the U.S. gets straightened out.

[Andy123]

The above mentioned school provides without a doubt the best quality education for adults. The school across the street has had similar problems for more than a year and a half.

This problem has been emerging for more than a year now. I have heard many that other schools are having similar problems. The funny thing is that schools continue to pop-up all over. I often wonder if there is a word in Vietnamese for "feasibility study".

I have lived here for many, many years and I am a predictable creature of habit. I go to the same supermarket bi-weekly and shop religiously at the same stores. I can not believe the price increases. The cost of a hair cut from the same person 8 years ago has increases 300%. This is the Viet price not the Tay price.

My wages have not increased. Month by month it is becoming increasingly reflective of the Thailand ESL model.

I recently talked to a market researcher working for a foreign investment company who employed a Viet company to conduct an extensive market survey. He concluded that there was no lucrative or expanding educational market except for children. They concluded that the teen, adult and corporate population group was saturated and clearly declining. They plan to open a kiddy school after the new year.

Is the future going to be about fighting backpackers for weekend kiddy classes? Good bye colloquial English and welcome to the world of Benten 10,000 English.

[1st Sgt Welsh]

[BenE]

Though I am not there at the moment I'd say the following is happening in the adult market after spending 18 months there until September 2010.

The time around now is pre tet. It's always a time of huge slowdowns and nothing promising. Vietnamese people don't like to start anything new so close to tet. Afterwards is the big influx of new students. You really don't know what it'll be like until after that.

Yes people have been saying that Vietnam is slowing down for a long time. Then again the WP crackdown did a lot to increase wages and hours for teachers that had their paperwork in order. (With that I mean a Vietnamese work permit which I still have)

IH has been losing the adult market for ages. Adult students have started to look around at a lot of the smaller schools for cheaper courses with either the same or better quality. They found that a lot of smaller and newer places could offer them the same for less. That lead to IH losing a large chunk of the market (in Hanoi anyway) Smaller schools though employing a few native teachers were able to charge less and pay more to their teachers as the overheads are lower and they often don't follow the law 100%.

I don't know if it's still the case now though I must say I've heard the same message in Jan/Feb since 2009.

[sigmoid]

I don't think we can simply blame the economic situation in the West [VN's economy is still officially robust] or an over-saturation of foreign teachers [a LOT of people have left over visa/work permit hassles, confusion, lack of transparency/clarity]. The causes of this situation are most likely local economic policies and mismanagement.

First, the ever weakening dong, which seems to be caused by the presence of the "black market" rate that puts continual downward pressure on the currency.

Second, rampant inflation has been left unchecked for about 5 years.

Both of these factors make language courses [an unnecessary luxury for intermediate/advanced students] more expensive. Plus, people are having to spend more money on other more important items, which of course leaves less disposable income.

Third is the traffic nightmare. Who wants to travel across town just to study English in the evenings when you have to fight your way through the demolition derby that occurs at the height of rush hour?

Kids classes are merely a social event or an excuse to get the kids out of the house for a few hours, basically, entertainment/babysitting. This is not really an option for serious teachers, who will simply move elsewhere.

Also, the schools themselves are at least partially to blame:

1) hiring fresh-faced graduates who have proved their willingness to submit by shelling out big bucks for a CELTA, but who have zero actual experience and don't really know how to teach

2) losing older experienced teachers due to lack of resources and facilities, lack of support for visa/tax/work permit issues, lack of respect, etc.

3) losing students because of shoddy classrooms, overcrowded classes, poor quality materials, etc.

In short, many schools don't know how to attract students, delivery what they promise or recruit and retain good teachers.

People in the know have already left VN. People who are there now should come up with a plan B. People considering coming to teach in VN should reconsider. It will take years for the situation to improve, if it does improve and these layoffs and salary reductions are likely just the tip of the iceberg.

[clifton10]

Sad, but true.

I've been here only since May 2010 and am surprised about the job reductions at the EFL schools in HCMC and here in Hanoi. I wasn't aware of the reductions taking place.

After the summer progamme ended at one 'big name' school, I've been working part-time only at another school here. I wish I could stay for three years as originally planned, but it looks as though I'll be flying off to Turkey in the next few months. The main reason being the traffic.

As for those who (hope to) stay here for Tet 2012, do you see any light at the end of the tunnel in terms of VN's EFL industry? I mean, it can't any worse (especially in the teen/adult part) can it?

[LettersAthruZ]

[Julio von Chewlio]

Reading all the posts leaves me with mixed feelings as I am arriving in about eight months.
However, on a more upbeat/positive note, could someone reply to tell me what is the average hourly salary and more importantly the expected weekly or monthly paid hours.

[clifton10]

Hi there, I honestly cannot give you an average weekly/monthly salary range; but to give you some idea, I worked at a 'big name' school here in Hanoi for six months and my hourly wage was 12 USD. At the school I'm working at right now, also here in Hanoi, I am earning 20 USD per hour. So despite the gloom and doom you're hearing, you would earn per hour more here than in say, Thailand.

Which cities in Nam are you considering?

[Vesuve]

[clifton10]

I have only two words: Who knows? When I arrived here from China back in May, when the school said that my pay would be $12 US/ hour, I thought(and still think) it was better than what I've earned back in the US in another industry, but let's get back to what you were asking me.

I didn't know back then that a backpacker would be making more than what I was. The school had excellent facilities, etc. So I'm lost for words why I was paid at the 'low end' of the pay scale.

Now, is that a normal hourly rate for the other 'famous schools' here in Hanoi?

[Vesuve]

[LettersAthruZ]

[Julio von Chewlio]

Hi there, I will start off in hcmc - got a few friends there, Viet & Japanese.
If that turns out to be a dud choice, then I have the freedom to explore and try elsewhere either in Vietnam or Cambodia/China.

Still no-one has stated the number of hours worked/paid for weekly/monthly - just a rough estimate will do, please.