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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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 Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Cool teacher posted
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| Oh yeah, and sometimes there are jerks around the world and someone who happense to be Japanese being a jerk doens't mean that their jerkness comes from being Japanese. |
Ha, ha, quite true, nationality doesn't make one a jerk (I'd be worried if that were the case with Palin and Bush running around). No, I'm just surprised that sometimes someone would not even recognize something for what it is.
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My wife speaks Englsih really well I think but she has experienced many tiems people in England and America who act like they can't here her.
In fact many times even my mum listens to her and then goes blank and obviously didn't understand. And I've seen this happen with other English people and also my wife has to speak English to other foreigners oin the phone in English and many times they say, "What? What? What?" |
But you see, they're saying "what, what?" not, "Oh, I don't speak/understand Japanese...."
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| It makes me sad and a bit angry how insensitvie that some of my friends and countrymen and fellow gaijins can be so I don't believe it is some kind of sense fo superiosity in Japan that makes people not get it. |
I don't think it's a feeling of superiority (though I suppose if one thought a culture and language were unfathomable and difficult to learn you could think that), but rather a different type of awareness as best as I can make out. |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:00 am Post subject: |
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This morning, the clerk at Starbucks said something to me as she was ringing up my purchase, and I was fretting about testing procedures, missing what she said. She had simply asked me if I had noticed the pretty tumblers in the display. It wasn't that I had a problem with comprehension of Japanese; I simply was distracted. We got talking, and it was nice to be greeted with a bright smile and pleasantries.
One of my highschoolers and I got into a bit of confusion the other day - we had an appointment to look over her summary, making a muddle of 要訳 and 予約. We both had a laugh, and straightened it out.
To be honest, I don't always understand some English speakers (Australian English comes to mind), or some Japanese second language learners. When you hear a foreign accent infrequently, or for the first time, it might take some adjustment to accommodate the accented English. I'm sure that the few people who don't understand my Japanese are simply confronted with an accent or prosody that they infrequently hear, making it harder for them to understand my non-native Japanese.
My poor grandparents were Glaswegian living in western Canada. I had to translate their talk to General American English for people not a few times.
So, go easy on Japanese people. They aren't all hosers. They may simply be stymied by an accent they seldom, or never, hear.
D'ye no ken?  |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| So, go easy on Japanese people. They aren't all hosers. They may simply be stymied by an accent they seldom, or never, hear. |
I think that's easy to do as my wife (and hence in-laws) are Japanese. Maybe just my experience, though others have echoed it on other forums. I think it's a conception held by many here; foreigner= non-Japanese speaking person (David Spector aside that is). Either that or it only happens to people who block the sun  , especially a rising one at that. 
Just call me, been there, seen that, don't tell me it's not so....
Signed,
2m gaijin (aka gaijinalways) |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:11 am Post subject: Re: Japanese who don't understand gaijin Japanese |
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| Cool Teacher wrote: |
| rxk22 wrote: |
I used to think it was just me, but often times I will talk to Japanese people, and there is always that one person who just can't seem to understand me. Anyhow recent story
I subbed at an elem school the other day. The guy they had help me out, didn't understand any of my Japanese at all. I asked in Japanese "what is the students English level", he thought I said seitan instead of seito-tachi  A nearby JT saw this, and came and resuced me, as she understood me.
My Japanese is not fluent, but it is def pretty solid. So, it's not me saying all kinds of gibberish. Wonder what it is? Are they nervous when talking to a gaijin, and just get flustered? Kinda funny and annoying at the same time. |
Ohje come on!
My wife speaks Englsih really well I think but she has experienced many tiems people in England and America who act like they can't here her. 
In fact many times even my mum listens to her and then goes blank and obviously didn't understand. And I've seen this happen with other English people and also my wife has to speak English to other foreigners oin the phone in English and many times they say, "What? What? What?" 
It makes me sad and a bit angry how insensitvie that some of my friends and countrymen and fellow gaijins can be so I don't believe it is some kind of sense fo superiosity in Japan that makes people not get it.
Oh yeah, and sometimes there are jerks around the world and someone who happense to be Japanese being a jerk doens't mean that their jerkness comes from being Japanese.  |
Hmmm, haven't really seen that. Though my hometown area has a lot of people who's first language is not English. In fact, I was used to foreigner's English before I came to Japan.
Wonder what makes people do it? I know it's not a Japanese thing, but I have seen it so many times here, that I thought it just occurred here more than in other areas.
Kinda like how Japanese if they don't understand you will just say yes rapidly. Other people do that as well, but not like the Japanese. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:27 am Post subject: Re: Japanese who don't understand gaijin Japanese |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
| Kinda like how Japanese if they don't understand you will just say yes rapidly. Other people do that as well, but not like the Japanese. |
Probably because they're to polite to turn around and say, "For f*** sake! Why can't you bloody foreigners learn how to speak Japanese?!" or "Why are you coming to live in Japan if you don't understand the language?" Many a time I've heard foreigners in England on the receiving end of verbal abuse for not speaking or understanding English perfectly (and I'm not only taking about only in London where the locals in some parts can be a little intolerant and aggressive for various reasons; I've seen some horrific incidents in tourist-filled Canterbury on a daily basis) - and on one occassion physical abuse when a gang decided to pick on some poor French kids who had gotten lost and made the mistake of asking them for directions. One of the gang decided to put a cigarette out on one of the French girl's forehead when she asked them why they were being so horrible to them!
| Quote: |
| Wonder what makes people do it? I know it's not a Japanese thing, but I have seen it so many times here, that I thought it just occurred here more than in other areas. |
How many foreign countries have you lived in?
I'm pretty sure if you had lived in as many countries as I had or even watched interactions between locals and foreigners outside of you hometime or simply between those between local native speakers - find it pretty hard to believe that you've never misunderstood or simply not heard someone before - you'd realise that it happens... nothing funny or annoying about it. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Japanese who don't understand gaijin Japanese |
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[quote="seklarwia"]
| rxk22 wrote: |
| Kinda like how Japanese if they don't understand you will just say yes rapidly. Other people do that as well, but not like the Japanese. |
Probably because they're to polite to turn around and say, "For f*** sake! Why can't you bloody foreigners learn how to speak Japanese?!" or "Why are you coming to live in Japan if you don't understand the language?" Many a time I've heard foreigners in England on the receiving end of verbal abuse for not speaking or understanding English perfectly (and I'm not only taking about only in London where the locals in some parts can be a little intolerant and aggressive for various reasons; I've seen some horrific incidents in tourist-filled Canterbury on a daily basis) - and on one occassion physical abuse when a gang decided to pick on some poor French kids who had gotten lost and made the mistake of asking them for directions. One of the gang decided to put a cigarette out on one of the French girl's forehead when she asked them why they were being so horrible to them!
When it happens, I(or to others) AM(are) SPEAKING JAPANESE. It's not like I can't speak. Sure, if you have e watch TV 30-40% is still over my head, but basic conversation is not.
I was talking to my school's nurse about medicine in Japan. In the US, the school nurse gives the kids their prescriptions, and carrying them around is prohibited. We talked about the differences in medicine, and rules, but when couldn't say "syrup" in Japanese, aka mispronounce it, she panicked and ran to the English teach to get him to translate. It was kinda silly, as we had been speaking for a good 5 mins, before that. Didn't even give me a chance to explain it, or show her the word.
I lived in LA as well, so that def counts as a foreign country
That sounds pretty messed up. |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| It seems there is ample evidence for both positions. This is an empirical question, really, and sample sizes of 10 don't really serve as a big enough group to make any generalisations from. There's certainly not enough here to get heated about. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Japanese who don't understand gaijin Japanese |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
| When it happens, I(or to others) AM(are) SPEAKING JAPANESE. It's not like I can't speak. Sure, if you have e watch TV 30-40% is still over my head, but basic conversation is not. |
And? The kids I mentioned were speaking English. Unless you've been studying Japanese in school for the past 12 years, chances are the people and kids I'm talking about had better English than you have Japanese.
You seem to think that you are special and thus it shouldn't be happening to you instead of simply appreciating that as a foreigner you are going to have people not understand or hear what you say on more regular basis than the local native speakers are (and I can tell you it does happen even amongst natives) because believe it of not, you may not always speak in an easy to understand manner... it's nothing personal. And because there is such a small percentage of foreigners here, many Japanese people really are not used to interacting with foreigners as most of us may be (although I've met more than a few Americans who were obviously not used to interacting with non-Americans because they were able to insult or anger everyone within earshot just by trying to make conversation) and therefore may on occassion panic and/or react in a surprising manner (just because you didn't understand the reaction, doesn't make it "annoying", "funny" or "silly").
And perhaps that nurse reacted the way she did at that point because she had actually been finding it really difficult to understand you up to that point and used that moment as an excuse to get a JTE so that she could continue to communicate with you more easily. Or maybe she was really interested to hear about medical practices in US schools and didn't like feeling as though she was missing out on information (other than the word 'syrup' since you really don't know how easily she was understanding everything up to that point). But what does it matter honestly? She didn't understand what you said so she went to get someone. She didn't do anything obnoxious like ignore you because it was too troublesome to talk to you or start making the batsu sign with her arms and calling "No English!" as seems to happen to some people here. |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Easy, seklarwia, you may believe you're right but there's no way you can demonstrate it on the evidence you have.
The principle of charity applies here - you have no evidence that rxk22's Japanese is bad, other than your assertion that it's not, so it behoves you to accept their points at face value.
There is no evidence that rx22 thinks they are special. Others, myself included, have reported the same phenomenon, while others have suggested that it's just down to 'miscommunication'. Both positions are valid in that they are ultimately subject to empirical verification, at least in principle - there's no prima facie reason why the phenomenon can't be studied. Trying really hard to make rxk22 wrong doesn't improve the odds of you being right. |
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mspxlation
Joined: 13 Jul 2007
Posts: 44
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:05 am Post subject: |
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Some Japanese people develop selective deafness when confronted by a non-Japanese face. That's just the way it is.
I find that when I address a stranger, such as a store clerk or a policeman whom I'm asking for directions, it helps A LOT to start with, "Sumimasen ga..." and then pause for about three beats before continuing.
Working on your pronunciation is also a good idea. Even if it's good, you can always improve. Read aloud for a Japanese person and have him or her correct your pronunciation and intonation. Alternatively, find a recording or DVD of a person of your age and gender speaking. Try to sound as much like that person as possible. You may feel as if you are making fun of that person, but no, you're just trying to sound as much like a native speaker as possible. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
Easy, seklarwia, you may believe you're right but there's no way you can demonstrate it on the evidence you have.
The principle of charity applies here - you have no evidence that rxk22's Japanese is bad, other than your assertion that it's not, so it behoves you to accept their points at face value.
There is no evidence that rx22 thinks they are special. Others, myself included, have reported the same phenomenon, while others have suggested that it's just down to 'miscommunication'. Both positions are valid in that they are ultimately subject to empirical verification, at least in principle - there's no prima facie reason why the phenomenon can't be studied. Trying really hard to make rxk22 wrong doesn't improve the odds of you being right. |
Thanks Mr. Monkey.
I don't see how a felony assault and small talk in a semi-professional setting have anything to do with each other. |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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My two cents worth:
I used to have a problem with Japanese people misunderstanding me when I said "jukkai onegaishimasu" (10th floor, please!) in an elevator. As often as not, they would press the 6th floor button.
Why? I don't claim to have perfect pronunciation, but "rokkai" (6th floor) and "jukkai" (10th floor) are easy to distinguish. I asked the receptionist at the school where I worked. "I don't know. Your pronunciation is fine." I asked my wife. "I don't know. Your pronunciation is fine."
Finally, my wife figured it out. In Kanto, "rokkai" is pronounced with a falling tone and "jukkai" is pronounced with a rising tone. If you get the intonation wrong, the Japanese person has a hard time understanding you. (Just like the English words "fourteen" and "forty" are distinguished more by the difference in word-stress than by the "n" at the end.) My wife and the receptionist were so used to me getting the intonation wrong that they had stopped noticing. |
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wayne432
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 255
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Pitarou wrote: |
My two cents worth:
I used to have a problem with Japanese people misunderstanding me when I said "jukkai onegaishimasu" (10th floor, please!) in an elevator. As often as not, they would press the 6th floor button.
Why? I don't claim to have perfect pronunciation, but "rokkai" (6th floor) and "jukkai" (10th floor) are easy to distinguish. I asked the receptionist at the school where I worked. "I don't know. Your pronunciation is fine." I asked my wife. "I don't know. Your pronunciation is fine."
Finally, my wife figured it out. In Kanto, "rokkai" is pronounced with a falling tone and "jukkai" is pronounced with a rising tone. If you get the intonation wrong, the Japanese person has a hard time understanding you. (Just like the English words "fourteen" and "forty" are distinguished more by the difference in word-stress than by the "n" at the end.) My wife and the receptionist were so used to me getting the intonation wrong that they had stopped noticing. |
Well, the thing is... it should be "juukai" with a long u, not a double k sound. I'm not sure if that is how you were pronouncing it, but the spelling is off. If you mumbled it, spoke softly, or the person wasn't giving you their complete attention, they could have heard the double k sound. It's possible the tone could have helped that too.
Sadly, a native speaker often ignores a mistake that a close foreign speaker might make until it becomes a natural part of that speaker's speech, because they think it's correct. I think it happens everywhere.
As far as tones go, while people tend to put a lot of emphasis in learning correct tones, in a normal flowing conversation, a lot of those tones are glossed over, because the context surrounding it usually provides the key. For example, if you were going to travel to see a famous "hashi", no one would assume chopsticks. |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| wayne432 wrote: |
| Pitarou wrote: |
| I used to have a problem with Japanese people misunderstanding me when I said "jukkai onegaishimasu" (10th floor, please!) in an elevator. As often as not, they would press the 6th floor button. |
Well, the thing is... it should be "juukai" with a long u, not a double k sound. |
According to Minna no Nihongo, both jukkai and juukai are okay. Having said that, if juukai is more common in Kanto that would help explain the confusion.
| wayne432 wrote: |
| Sadly, a native speaker often ignores a mistake that a close foreign speaker might make until it becomes a natural part of that speaker's speech, because they think it's correct. I think it happens everywhere. |
Yes. My wife complains that I don't correct her English mistakes enough. Of course, the best time to correct her is in the middle of an argument. 
| wayne432 wrote: |
| As far as tones go, while people tend to put a lot of emphasis in learning correct tones... |
Really!? That's not been my experience. |
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wayne432
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 255
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Pitarou wrote: |
| wayne432 wrote: |
| Pitarou wrote: |
| I used to have a problem with Japanese people misunderstanding me when I said "jukkai onegaishimasu" (10th floor, please!) in an elevator. As often as not, they would press the 6th floor button. |
Well, the thing is... it should be "juukai" with a long u, not a double k sound. |
According to Minna no Nihongo, both jukkai and juukai are okay. Having said that, if juukai is more common in Kanto that would help explain the confusion.
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My mistake here. You're right. Jukkai is also correct. |
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