Job Discussion Forums

[Josef K]

Hi all,

I am hoping someone can help me with some specifics regarding Language Schools - I am doing a case study as part of my postgrad work and the emails I have sent to schools have gone unanswered.
Basically, I am looking into the teaching context so I would appreciate anyone with first hand information to help compile data on the following:

-Physical characteristics of the schools including facilities and resources.

-Role of materials and text books.

-Typical class size and duration.

-Nature of assessment.

-Role of native teachers, especially in relation to local or non native teachers.

-Opportunities for professional development.

And any opinions on the program and syllabus you teach and its relevance or not to the students especially in regards to cultural sensitivity.


This is a lot to ask, so anything you might be able to contribute would be helpful (note I have already searched the threads and youtube so I have snippets but not nearly enough info)


Cheers.

[Jbhughes]

PM Sent.

[snollygoster]

Basically a sore and sorry lot
I spent 9 years there in all types of ESL establishments and in teacher training and managerial positions- The underlying influence is lies, rip off and mismanagement.

The programs that are on offer are mostly second rate rejects from other countries, and the people who make good business from ESL in Vietnam are mafia types and rip-off merchants. There is almost NO academic merit to any of it.
An example- Saigon Technical University runs a ESL Business program (Its not Business- its basic GE) with certification from Houston Community College. A pass rate is 50%, and examiners are advised that if the student can write his.her name on the paper, thats 52% award.

Cheating and plagurism are not only allowed, but instructors are expected to give students the web sites from which to copy and paste their assignments, so often students turn in immaculate work, but can hardly say "Name me Huong".

Instructors generally are either dont care less types, or if they had a concience when they arrived, its been beaten out of them long ago-The ones who really do care left quickly.
Personally I stayed to try to make a difference- I didnt make that difference as even at the end I was being offered bribes to pass students, and my employers were down on me for not allowing the students to pass with distinction when they couldnt put a full sentence together.

Those establishments that are honest and try hard usually go under at the persistent sniping from the government which is extremely corrupt.

Not a pretty picture I am sorry, but a true one. There are of course exceptions, but not many.

[Josef K]

This sounds pretty sad snolly.

Is this also true of private language schools or just the public schools?

[Mattingly]

[baygioimdi]

Well, yeah yeah yeah, we have all heard this before, unfortunately, if you want any information concerning English language teaching and schools in Vietnam I suggest you go somewhere else for your needs, it is very difficult to find any reliable info on this web site.

Best of luck

PS you can check the websites of the most professional language schools in vietnam for some of your enquiries.

[snollygoster]

Sure you can check the web sites of the better schools- Will they tell you the negative points? I doubt it. Most dont have a functioning web site.

Lets take a look at each point you raised- My answers are my own observations in general, and dont apply to each and every school in Vietnam, PLUS others may have different experiences.

Mine are from many years of observation both as a teacher and in managerial roles.

Physical characteristics of the schools including facilities and resources.
Rooms are (mostly) too small, a lot have (inadequate) air-con, broken desks, small whiteboards, and are rarely cleaned to an acceptable standard. Mostly, broken desks, etc go unattended.

-Role of materials and text books.
Text books are largely pirated photocopies, and very poorly copied-often unreadable. Texts are more often than not used as the curriculum, and most ESL teachers are not really good enough at their job to be able to adapt the text book to meaningful lessons, so a lot of extra materials are needed (resourced and supplied by the teachers) to make lessons meaningful.
Materials other than text books are almost non existent unless the teacher supplies them him/her self.
Some "thinking" schools do have scanned or copied original worksheets etc pirated from commercially available books.

Photocopies are a constant problem in a lot (but not all) schools. For a class of 30, you may be "allowed" 20 photocopies, must order it 24 hrs in advance, and then the quality (if you get it on time) is often so poor it cant be used anyway. If you exceed your "quota" you may be asked to "please explain"
This is NOT the case in a few of the foreign run schools, where there is a recognition that resources need to be used to get results.

-Typical class size and duration.
Classes are of various sizes- In Unis you may get 100+, but usually more like 40. Language mills vary in size, and its not uncommon to see 40+ packed into room built to accommodate 15. Especially so with kids classes (baby sitting classes) on a Saturday and/or Sunday morning.

On the other side of the coin, there are "better"" class foreign run Language Mills, where a class can be 15.

Usual classes run for 2 hours with a 10 minute break in the middle, but of course this can vary depending on what is being offered and to whom. Some have 90 minute or 60 minute classes.

-Nature of assessment.
Everyone passes-even if they dont- To have them fail could mean the financial supplier will take his/her business to another school, and they do.

-Role of native teachers, especially in relation to local or non native teachers.

Relationship of teacher to student is one of baby sitter in most cases.
Native speakers are used primarily for speaking classes and to model pronunciation.
Relationship to local teachers is complex- Firstly, thinking local teachers take advantage of the native speaker as something of a mentor, and this is admirable. However, more often than nmot, the co-teacher is employed to report on what he/she finds unacceptable in the native speaker- If the school can find a reason to move the native speaker on before the expiration of 3 months, then they dont have to go to the expense and bother of getting a work permit for that teacher.
The "report" that the local teacher gives on the native speaker is really spying-and looking for reasons to dismiss. These "observations" by local teachers are usually performed by so called teachers who have no knowledge of teaching practices and certainly most know nothing of teaching English. Ther are, of course exceptions.

-Opportunities for professional development.

Unless the teacher is lucky enough to have a contract with one of the "big three" opportunities for professional development are zero.
Even when a teacher takes the effort to gain additional qualifications by his/her own effort, it is largely unrewarded, as this may now make that teacher more expensive than a new face fresh off the boat.

And any opinions on the program and syllabus you teach and its relevance or not to the students especially in regards to cultural sensitivity.

The syllabus is almost non-existent- relies on commercially available texts (usually copied and sold at the government run book-shop), and because they are from UK or USA in most cases, there is no adaptation for local culture.
Primary government schools, however, do have texts for English that have been written in the local context, and are, in general, quite good. However the delivery by poorly trained teachers and insistence on dogmatic party principals in the teaching render these otherwise good texts almost useless.

I hope this insight is useful- I will undoubtedly be attacked by owners and other suckers up of Languiage Mills, but my observations are factual, and I challenge anyone to deny the points I bring up.

[baygioimdi]

I have no idea where snolly has been teaching in Vietnam.

Yes there are hundreds of schools mostly cowboy outfits, however, I was discussing the high end/professional schools such as:

ILA, British Council, ACET, Language Link, Bell, RMIT etc

All of the above schools have functional websites, good facilities and classrooms, original textbooks, class size-18-20 max, good resource material, teacher development etc.

I can't comment on sub-standard EFL schools because I have never worked for one in Vietnam. In addition, I don't have any friends who have worked for these cowboy outfits. Most of my friends are CELTA qualified, experienced, degree etc and would probably never work for these "schools".

I also think it is misleading prospective EFL teachers in Vietnam to paint such a negative picture of EFL schools in Vietnam without being clear on the type of school one is discussing.

If one has a CELTA, degree, and motivation, one will probably never have to work for these schools so I prefer to focus on reality- the schools that qualified teachers will be teaching English at not at schools they will never see.

I also have years of experience working in Vietnam in both teaching and management positions, many more than Snolly. Snolly has nine years experience working in cowboy operations. Therefore, one should possibly read snolly's comments if you are interested in working for a cowboy outfit. However, if one wants to find out about teaching in a reputable school, the comments have little or no meaning.

Cheers

[LettersAthruZ]

[snollygoster]

However, if one wants to find out about teaching in a reputable school, the comments have little or no meaning.

How unfortunately true. There are the very few "better" schools, and as the poster said "Hundreds" of the other type.
Actually, one of the "other" type, not mentioned but alluded to, is the biggest employer of foreign teachers in Vietnam with branches in almost every city and town with more than 2 dogs.

I felt certain my post would bring out a few people fighting for the good cause of the very few better schools, and justly so- but I did say there were exceptions.

By the way, I also have worked for some of those "better" ones, AND a few "Cowboy" outfits that I would consider to be good- My comments are regarding the vast majority, which has been confirmed by the poster's reference to a handful of what he/she feels are better schools. And the majority?

[toiyeuthitmeo]

I once worked at a place that had a few classrooms with balconies, where one could join the boys for a cheeky cigarette during the break. I also once worked at a private house teaching a corporate group, and was utterly tickled each time I realized that all of us professional adults were sat round tending to this serious business of English learning in our bare feet. As I recall, we all shared a communal drinking glass in that class (not too uncommon in these parts but I still avoid it

One English language teaching establishment of international acclaim present in Saigon is reputed to have such a cramped and shabby working environment that teachers tend to do all of their prep at home, rather than being packed in like sardines.

Still others go to great lengths to be high-tech, with audio-visual devices, digital projectors, climate control, and even private cubicles for teachers complete with a name plate and daily re-supply of stationary, pens, and markers.

I'm interested in how our accounts of teaching conditions will be put to use in an objective/academic study, as the standards in this country vary so widely. I think it'd be really difficult to establish any kind of "average picture" here.

[Andy123]

[LettersAthruZ]

Oh Andy! Don't be such a Negative Nellie!!

Don't you know?? Anybody with THE CORRECT CREDENTIALS AND THE PROPER AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE can make up to ten thousand Do La My per week in Vietnam??

I read that on Dave's ELS Cafe

I mean....it doesn't really matter if the school can only muster four students for your class (because of the recent spat of hyper-inflation)....they'll still find a way to get you that Ten Grand.....really.....

[Josef K]

[LettersAthruZ]

Best of luck on your paper, Josef!

As they grade things here, I hope that you get a "10"!!

(WITHOUT the hối lộ, of course!!)