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redsnapper
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 60
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 Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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This person made this post that made some excellent points on this subject on a similar thread that I have placed in bold.
| 7168Riyadh wrote: |
@vorticity
ghost is right, if it's not mentioned on the certificate (and usually it's not) and if the employer wants you, shouldn't have a problem...
...but if only it were that simple. This regulation actually originates in the US, where you are supposed to spend 1/3 of your time in the campus attending classes for your degree to be recognized as a valid qualification to teach at a college. The regulation is designed to counter "degree mills" that basically hand out degrees in exchange for a fee, a prevalent practice in the US where the higher education system is very laissez-faire. It is the Saudi Committee (Council?) for Higher Education that has introduced this rule in Saudi to, as they see it, help maintain high standards 
...Now I earned my degree online through supported learning (it was a superb degree course, equal to any other MA), and went on to teach at a university in the kingdom. But I was hired by a recruiter. When I applied for a job at another university, they had sniffed my degree out as earned online, no doubt because one of my compatriots worked on their hiring team and had alerted the management--who needs enemies, eh.
There is no right answer here, of course, but you if you're hired through a recruiter you'll probably be okay. Otherwise, it may be tricky.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=83818&start=30
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For it to be considered blended the program would have to have at least 1/3 of the classes completed at the campus issuing the degree for it to be a blended degree. Taking one course out of 20 at the school won't cut it as being a blended program. And for employers to notice that it is an online degree is not that difficult. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| For it to be considered blended the program would have to have at least 1/3 of the classes completed at the campus issuing the degree for it to be a blended degree. |
It's unclear to me in what way US standards would affect a degree earned in another country and presented as a part of an application for a job in yet another non-US country.
US standards simply aren't applicable worldwide.
| Quote: |
| And for employers to notice that it is an online degree is not that difficult |
Exactly my point throughout the thread.
The bottom line is that it's up to whatever hiring committee in whatever country and institution to decide whether candidate ABC's degree is acceptable or not.
There are no worldwide rules on this. |
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redsnapper
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| For it to be considered blended the program would have to have at least 1/3 of the classes completed at the campus issuing the degree for it to be a blended degree. |
It's unclear to me in what way US standards would affect a degree earned in another country and presented as a part of an application for a job in yet another non-US country.
US standards simply aren't applicable worldwide.
| Quote: |
| And for employers to notice that it is an online degree is not that difficult |
Exactly my point throughout the thread.
The bottom line is that it's up to whatever hiring committee in whatever country and institution to decide whether candidate ABC's degree is acceptable or not.
There are no worldwide rules on this. |
With higher ed institutions in the US you might have online degree but no one is going to hire you with that type of degree. If someone wants to work for a US affiliated higher ed institution or an institution engaged in higher ed in the US then one should not waste their time doing an online degree- that is mostly completed online. In addition there also institutions that may or may not hold the same requirements. Either way though the online degree will be useless in the US. While US standards are not worldwide neither are your Canadian or Western European standards. Your Canadian and Western European standards don't apply in the US or with any higher ed institution affiliated with or patterned after the standard set for higher ed institutions. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Your Canadian and Western European standards don't apply in the US or with any higher ed institution affiliated with or patterned after the standard set for higher ed institutions |
But the degree gained in those standards IS accepted in the Middle East. This is the ME board, not the US.
The point about the US is moot here. |
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redsnapper
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Your Canadian and Western European standards don't apply in the US or with any higher ed institution affiliated with or patterned after the standard set for higher ed institutions |
But the degree gained in those standards IS accepted in the Middle East. This is the ME board, not the US.
The point about the US is moot here. |
It's not moot to anyone who either applies to a Saudi university or a Saudi University affiliated with a US Institution of higher learning that doesn't accept your version of a blended degree or to any person who currently or plans to work in the ME and then at a later time plans to work in the US. You seem to have a hard time comprehending the fact that even if the Ministry of Education accepts a type of degree doesn't mean that a higher learning institution must also accept that degree. This is the floor not the ceiling.
And this isn't, as you allege, simply because of the whims of the hiring committee but moreover because of the foundations of the institution itself and its possible affiliation with US higher educational institutions or the higher standards that they follow.
This is not the Western European and Canadian ESL Cafe. While I realize it bothers you, that doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of Americans working in the ME that post on here and that plan to repatriate back to the States. The only thing moot to these individuals is your misinformation.
When individuals have a choice to complete a traditional, blended, or online degree they should have all the facts. When a person invests the time, money and resources in completing an advanced degree I think it is a logical assumption that the person isn't just completing that degree for the here and now job but also for their future career aspirations which might also include working in the United States or for some higher educational institution affiliated with the US. |
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SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Distance-degree holders are quite common in U.S. higher education, specifically in community colleges as instructors. Sorry to burst your bubble! |
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redsnapper
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| SahanRiddhi wrote: |
| Distance-degree holders are quite common in U.S. higher education, specifically in community colleges as instructors. Sorry to burst your bubble! |
I am aware that the standards for part-time hourly wage earning 2 year college ESL instructors is quite low. However, to get beyond that level toward a full time salaried Tenure position with full benefits you will need something more than an online distance degree--even for a 2 year college in the states.
Sorry to rain reality down on your party.
Last edited by redsnapper on Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:53 am Post subject: |
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Full time salaried tenured??????????????
What ESL world do you live in?? In the US, 95.987% of us are lucky to get a crappy adjunct position with no promise of hours beyond this semester and certainly no benefits...
And that is with a legitimate MA from a brick and mortar. Most of us with your vaunted credentials kiss the ground (and likely kiss lots of a s s) to get a full time position at a Community College.
VS |
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redsnapper
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
Full time salaried tenured??????????????
What ESL world do you live in?? In the US, 95.987% of us are lucky to get a crappy adjunct position with no promise of hours beyond this semester and certainly no benefits...
And that is with a legitimate MA from a brick and mortar. Most of us with your vaunted credentials kiss the ground (and likely kiss lots of a s s) to get a full time position at a Community College.
VS |
My sentiments exactly. I have a friend who had to teach at three community colleges at different times on different days before they finally got a full time tenured position. And they had the same level of degree as you stated. I find it almost comical that the previous poster thinks his distance MA would be worth something even for these jobs with already a gazillion applicants with traditional degrees applying for the same job. |
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SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:27 am Post subject: |
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It can be done, including the tenure track! Online, in person, the schools don't care. I know of people who teach in four-year U.S. colleges with online degrees only. (Not in the elite field of ESL, though.)
Spend two years out of the work force in a classroom, pay hefty tuition, all for a TESOL master's? In order to pursue non-existent tenure positions, trek school to school for thankless adjunct classes, or reach the supposed pinnacle of EFL success in some godforsaken Middle Eastern desert?
Hmm, I wonder why that route isn't more popular.
Sorry if I'm making you feel bad by pointing this out! |
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redsnapper
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| SahanRiddhi wrote: |
It can be done, including the tenure track! Online, in person, the schools don't care. I know of people who teach in four-year U.S. colleges with online degrees only. (Not in the elite field of ESL, though.)
Spend two years out of the work force in a classroom, pay hefty tuition, all for a TESOL master's? In order to pursue non-existent tenure positions, trek school to school for thankless adjunct classes, or reach the supposed pinnacle of EFL success in some godforsaken Middle Eastern desert?
Hmm, I wonder why that route isn't more popular.
Sorry if I'm making you feel bad by pointing this out! |
Which 4 year colleges in the US would these be? I need a good laugh based on your fictional accounts. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| redsnapper wrote: |
| Which 4 year colleges in the US would these be? I need a good laugh based on your fictional accounts. |
Why is it that you feel the need to attack anyone who disagrees with you? The fact is that the US is a big country and it is very likely that you don't know every single American... or every single college... or every single university. Thus you have no basis on which to attack anyone who mentions that they, in fact, know people with the ever more common US online degrees getting jobs. While I will always advise people to do an on campus degree if they can, I would never be so arrogant as to attack those that are unable to do them. The fact is that online degrees will be more and more common as time goes on and more and more jobs available for those that have them - even in the degrading halls of academia.
It seems to me that you are just merely trying to be argumentative and it is looking more and more like borderline trolling to me. I notice that your comments got the other thread on this topic locked.
VS |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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In any case, for our purposes it matters not a toss what universities in the US (or UK, or Canada, or Burkina Faso...) will or will not accept. It only matters what ministries and universities in the Gulf will accept.
As I've said above, the official position of the Saudi Min of Ed is that they do not accept degrees done online. However, I know several people who did their degrees entirely online (and this must have been known to their employers) and they still got jobs with reputable employers who treated (and paid) them the same as those with degrees earned on campus. So even if the Ministry does not recognise online degrees, many universities do, and since it's they who employ and pay you, at the end of the day they are the ones whose opinions count. |
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redsnapper
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| redsnapper wrote: |
| Which 4 year colleges in the US would these be? I need a good laugh based on your fictional accounts. |
Why is it that you feel the need to attack anyone who disagrees with you? |
Actually read carefully I was responding most of the time.
| Quote: |
The fact is that the US is a big country and it is very likely that you don't know every single American... or every single college... or every single university. |
This is true so I asked which schools these were. If a person makes a claim like that asking someone to substantiate it is not unreasonable.
| Quote: |
Thus you have no basis on which to attack anyone who mentions that they, in fact, know people with the ever more common US online degrees getting jobs. |
I wasn't the one making the claim.
| Quote: |
While I will always advise people to do an on campus degree if they can, I would never be so arrogant as to attack those that are unable to do them. The fact is that online degrees will be more and more common as time goes on and more and more jobs available for those that have them - even in the degrading halls of academia. |
Facts are not predictions based on speculation. I speculate that my neighbor might win the lottery tomorrow. No one knows if that will happen. Online degrees have been around for over a decade now and while the University of Phoenix founders are billionaires that doesn't make the degrees people bought worth anymore than going down to your local trophy store and buying yourself your own trophy for winning a race you never competed in. But who knows maybe the University of La Verne (and Shirley) will make a comeback one of these days after all. http://www.laverne.edu/laverne-online/ / http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRmKzxhMzwo.
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It seems to me that you are just merely trying to be argumentative and it is looking more and more like borderline trolling to me. I notice that your comments got the other thread on this topic locked.
VS |
Really?
| SahanRiddhi wrote: |
Sorry to burst your bubble!
Sorry if I'm making you feel bad by pointing this out! |
Seems you missed these comments by the other poster |
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SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| redsnapper wrote: |
| SahanRiddhi wrote: |
It can be done, including the tenure track! Online, in person, the schools don't care. I know of people who teach in four-year U.S. colleges with online degrees only. (Not in the elite field of ESL, though.)
Spend two years out of the work force in a classroom, pay hefty tuition, all for a TESOL master's? In order to pursue non-existent tenure positions, trek school to school for thankless adjunct classes, or reach the supposed pinnacle of EFL success in some godforsaken Middle Eastern desert?
Hmm, I wonder why that route isn't more popular.
Sorry if I'm making you feel bad by pointing this out! |
Which 4 year colleges in the US would these be? I need a good laugh based on your fictional accounts. |
You're joking, right? All of them, as far as I know. I guess the burden should be on you. Show us proof of one university in the U.S. that refuses to hire online graduates. Your cousin Lou in Toledo who once stood near Wharton does not count. An actual link to something from the school itself would be nice. Remember, the U.S. is not the Middle East. If you don't believe me, check a globe. |
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