Job Discussion Forums

[Trinley]

That really won't be necessary as I'm not yet ready to apply for positions. I'm trying to decide between Korea and Saudi Arabia for later this year, and I'm starting with some general research on the salary and positions that I may be offered so that I can compare. At this point I have no need for email addresses and have not requested any.

My question has been answered by huh? and by an informative PM. You may continue to argue amongst yourselves, but my question has been answered. Thank you!

[veiledsentiments]

[blackwellben]

[Sheikh N Bake]

[johnslat]

Dear blackwellben,

You accuse me of being myopic, but, of course, all of your claims are unsupported. However, I'm more than willing to be convinced. Why not ask some of those women (who were never swayed by statistics pulled from the air) to also post on Dave's Saudi forum?

If I'm wrong, I'll not hesitate to apologize, but it would be nice to see something beyond your posts as evidence supporting what you've written.

[veiledsentiments]

[blackwellben]

[johnslat]

Dear blackwellben,

"John, of the 50 to 60 people I've worked with over here, only one was interested in posting to Dave's. And he liked it best when intoxicated. A Dylan Thomas type."

Hmm, unfortunate - so I suppose readers must perforce judge the accuracy of your claims based only on your posts.

Well, so be it, then. Caveat emptor.

Regards,
John

[veiledsentiments]

[blackwellben]

I was willing to give John the last word, or rather a phrase, seemingly of import, but the natter merits response, nabobs.
I trust an invocation of Nixon (applied to teachers) is of sufficient irony to underscore a conservatism straining rationality as well as challenge a posturing I view as conveniently narrow.
When it comes to the topic of Saudi Arabia, I rarely see rigor in the expressions of many.
I've not related anything different from yourselves, an experience.
But am saddled by a criterion of corroboration, as though this were a court, while provoked to deny an inappropriate inference (of my L1) when a biased expression invited scrutiny.
As it's been said, so be it.
Lastly, might I add, "I'm not a crook."

[johnslat]

Dear blackwellben,

I'd call that an unfortunate choice for comparison:

"I am not a crook."
On November 17, 1973, President Richard Nixon infamously denied any involvement in the Watergate scandal with his now timeless defense. Thing is, he was."

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1859513_1859526_1859514,00.html#ixzz1J2EeZJRB

Regards,
John

[blackwellben]

Yeah

That's called irony, not an unfortunate choice.
Where's that Homer guy? He appreciates levity and is self-effacing.

Impose a burden of accusation all you like, its sour effect is your own.
I require, nor desire, a proffered apology conditioned by terms you define.

Our project employs women from South Africa, US, Canada and England.
More than half, actually, have renewed.

I think that's a wonderful thing and though I hear you, I hear your skepticism and its basis, it's not absolute and its exception is not negligible, as a phrasing of 99% implies.

Your characterizations are convenient. A garden path? Opposition to your opinion is given exaggeration and support of your opinion implied.

Nineteen years is something to be proud of. I wouldn't deny you that.
However, wouldn't you say, in the last two decades, the roles of women, their autonomy and accomplishment, have known significant change?

Saudi Arabia lags the world in its empowerment of women (as perceived by secular sensibility), but progress elsewhere in the choices of women has resulted in what I experience.

And you dismiss this as an impossible claim of a charlatan.
And that surprises me.

[johnslat]

Dear blackwellben,

Ah, irony - is that the use of words to convey the opposite of their literal meaning? OK, I can see that.

I didn't realize that getting some collaboration would impose such a burden. Actually your writing style reminds me of someone who used to post here before, a poster with the user name lazycomputerkids - lck, for short.) I sometimes had a little difficulty figuring out just what he/she meant (which was likely due to my poor reading skills,) as in this example of yours:

"I require, nor desire, a proffered apology conditioned by terms you define."

I suppose the "terms" I "define" would mean my asking if you could provide some collaboration, but you lost me on the first past of the sentence.

If your answering won't involve blowing your cover, I wonder if I could inquire whether your project is with Bell?

Again, I would like to emphasize that I'd be VERY happy to hear of a place in the Kingdom where ladies with minimal qualifications and experience are treated fairly and considerately. It's just that I've never heard of any such place before, either in my own experience or on any of the threads here. In fact, the opposite has been the rule - but if there's an exception to that rule, I can only applaud it.

But I'm afraid that I wouldn't say this: ". . . in the last two decades, the roles of women, their autonomy and accomplishment, have known significant change." It all depends, I suppose on one's definition of the word "significant." But having been able to observe the treatment of women in the Kingdom during the 80s, the 90s and part of the first decade of the 2000s, I can't see how anyone could think that significant change as regards the treatment of women took place over that time period.

Perhaps the rate of that change has accelerated rapidly since my departure, but I haven't seen any evidence of that.


I have never called you a "charlatan," and I would hate to think you are one. My problem is that your claims go against all I've known to be true. While this doesn't necessarily mean that your claims are not true, I hope you can appreciate why I remain skeptical.

Regards,
John

[feelfree]

I enjoyed my experience living in Riyadh during the 90s, but it was one of a pampered wife living on a western compound. The unaccompanied women I met were mostly in the medical professions. Those who enjoyed their experience were with good recruitment agencies AND were able to adjust to local conditions.

It is good to read the points of view presented here.

I would like to read more from women who are living and teaching in KSA and why it works for them.

[blackwellben]

Every time I post to this forum, an accusation I'm someone else is made.
You guys really miss that character. LCK works for Al Khaleej, so there you go.

I appreciate the last paragraph of your last post and accept its resolution.

I've stated I work for Al Khaleej. Bell/Obeikan is a competitor I'd like held to the standards of our efforts. I've heard, unlike our yearly contracts, its was for three years, this being the final year.

When I arrived, there was but one female teacher. She renewed, but for a management/consultation position elsewhere.
Later on, seven women joined. One left nearly immediately, citing culture shock, the other at the end of her contract-- she'd been a manager. Five stayed.
I know none blithely recommend Saudi Arabia to just anyone.
When contacted by interested recruits through this forum, and others, I refer women to other women as, even after spending months together, the men have been guilty of "forgetting" what it's like for the women, or thoughtlessly decry their own conditions when the women have it worse.

I think what makes our experience the exception is a compound in which we're given the freedom to behave like westerners.
I can't emphasize it enough really.
When I read of other experiences, such is what's missing-- hotels and compounds on which fraternizing is scrutinized.
We're allowed to be "crazy westerners" with the understanding our behavior at work is that of guests who accept and accommodate Arabic sensibility.

Compounds are a wise segregation. I'm astonished when I read of those in which westerners aren't granted privacy.