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shuanglu pijiu
Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Posts: 17
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 Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| thelmaharper.1921 wrote: |
| shuanglu pijiu wrote: |
and i'm not some keyboard warrior. i have a Doctorate in Chinese Linguistics, can read and write well over 15,000 characters, and have worked for years as a legal and immigration interpreter and translator. so no, i'm not just chiding others for doing what i can't do.
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Are you telling us that you read 5x as many characters as a native speaker? Are there even 15,000 characters in common use? I have read that a random sample of words fits 99.48% onto 2,000 characters. |
oh, well, if you "read" it somewhere, it must be staggeringly true. actually in modern day it's about 5,000 characters for a literate adult (went to high school, college, etc), not 2,000. and as 7969 pointed out (thank you by the way) i never said they were in common use. being a translator requires you to encounter and be responsible for a myriad of characters that are not in daily use. so what? i don't hear people say "recondite," "profligate," or "heteroclite" every day either... does that mean i shouldn't even know what they mean?
the whole point of me even saying that in the first place was not to be elitist or brag about my abilities. the point was to show that with some time and a boatload of hard work, you can achieve fluency and beyond in Chinese, but that it takes you sucking it up and getting out in the real world first - going out into society, trying to communicate, making mistakes, and learning how to get your point across. it has to start there... and at least attempting to do it yourself first instead of just having someone help you do it, is the first step.
bottom line, you're in China. people speak Chinese here. you should too. if you don't know how, learn. i love how people expect their students to speak great English in class, and even constantly deride their abilites, when they themselves can't speak barely 2 words of Chinese. if you want others to throw themselves wholeheartedly into learning your language, maybe you should do the same for theirs. |
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mat chen
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 494
Location: xiangtan hunan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:12 am Post subject: |
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Well said Beer Man.
I am amazed at how many words my students can identify in Chinese. I think this is the Chinese education delema. Learning Chinese for a CHinese person is very arduous. No wonder they reject trying to learn another language that is impossible to practice. It is like learning how to swim with a teacher who has never swam. |
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sistercream
Joined: 18 Dec 2010
Posts: 497
Location: Pearl River Delta
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| shuanglu pijiu wrote: |
the whole point of me even saying that in the first place was not to be elitist or brag about my abilities. the point was to show that with some time and a boatload of hard work, you can achieve fluency and beyond in Chinese, but that it takes you sucking it up and getting out in the real world first - going out into society, trying to communicate, making mistakes, and learning how to get your point across. it has to start there... and at least attempting to do it yourself first instead of just having someone help you do it, is the first step.
bottom line, you're in China. people speak Chinese here. you should too. if you don't know how, learn. i love how people expect their students to speak great English in class, and even constantly deride their abilites, when they themselves can't speak barely 2 words of Chinese. if you want others to throw themselves wholeheartedly into learning your language, maybe you should do the same for theirs. |
Where's the "Like" button? |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:00 am Post subject: |
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I think it is good to know Chinese, but to say it is irresponsible to not is a bit ridiculous.
To the comment about expecting students to learn good English being a conflict if you know no Chinese, how?
People don't always come to China to learn Chinese, but students who have a class in English should always desire to learn/know English.
You have to respect that not everyone who comes here has the desire to stay here for more that a year. Why learn a useless language just because you are here for a year? All of us might find a reason, but that doesn't mean we all need one.
It is like getting a job in a French speaking country, say Burkina Faso, as an English-Spanish translator and people telling you you're no good because you don't speak French. 
It is in most contracts that the employer is in charge of telling the employee of the laws/customs of the land. That would imply they are in charge of teaching you how to open a bank account, or can I just go in with a weapon and demand all the money. That is how we do it in my country....I know over the top, hyperbole, but the point remains. |
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shuanglu pijiu
Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
I think it is good to know Chinese, but to say it is irresponsible to not is a bit ridiculous.
To the comment about expecting students to learn good English being a conflict if you know no Chinese, how?
People don't always come to China to learn Chinese, but students who have a class in English should always desire to learn/know English.
You have to respect that not everyone who comes here has the desire to stay here for more that a year. Why learn a useless language just because you are here for a year? All of us might find a reason, but that doesn't mean we all need one.
It is like getting a job in a French speaking country, say Burkina Faso, as an English-Spanish translator and people telling you you're no good because you don't speak French.
It is in most contracts that the employer is in charge of telling the employee of the laws/customs of the land. That would imply they are in charge of teaching you how to open a bank account, or can I just go in with a weapon and demand all the money. That is how we do it in my country....I know over the top, hyperbole, but the point remains. |
at no point did i say it was irresponsible not to know Chinese.
my comment about students' English / not knowing Chinese was in reference to the fact that i've seen countless posts on this forum from people deriding their students' English abilities, when they themselves don't even possess the Chinese skills to go to the grocery store by themselves. if you ("you" in the general sense, not you specifically wangdaning) are too lazy to learn a second language yourself, how can you have the nerve to criticize someone else's ability in theirs? and before you say it's our job to criticize it because we're teachers, there's a big difference between constructive criticism and pure derision.
you are correct, people don't always come to China to learn Chinese. but you can't be serious that all students who have a class in English should always desire to learn English. did you always desire to know the subject matter of every class you attended when you were in school? tons of English and English-related classes in China are required by the school, not chosen by students.
and how on earth any of this is like the example you proposed about a French speaking country, i have no clue. we're talking about speaking Chinese, in China. that's pretty much as simple as it gets. not sure what you're trying to accomplish with so much hyperbole, but i'm sure it sounded better in your head. |
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El Chupacabra
Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 378
Location: Kwangchow
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: My Chinese superiors are refusing to help me |
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| wildgander wrote: |
I don't know if this is just my bad luck with these individuals or I'm running into a cultural pattern. I have been told I should learn Mandarin. I don't see how I can learn enough Mandarin is a week to deal with my bank or the phone company.
I'm beginning to wonder if there is a hidden resentment towards Americans or if the Chinese are very lazy and unwilling to help because they just don't want to bother themselves, or if there is some other cultural insensitivity involved?
I work long hours to do a good job teaching. Is it wrong of me to expect my supervisors to help me with problems with my bank and my phone company?
Why is my expectation so off base? I am growing weary of the way I am treated here in China. I am very disappointed in the indifference that I am experiencing. I don't think I would have come to China had I known I would be treated like this.
Hoping to hear from those who have more understanding of China than I do.
Wildgander |
Even after several years these types of errands are difficult. But they are not impossible. First resource should be your student monitors. You can easily get one to accompany you to a bank. Or you can head to a larger branch in a city, as I did, and find at least one bank worker looking to flex the English she learned in college. Basically, accept help and try not to get flustered.
Your "superiors" are not really in charge of you, but they are actually inferior government flunkies just trying to maintain their iron rice bowl and go back to their families at a reasonable hour. Most likely they can at the very least assign a student to help you with some translation tasks; every school I've been at offered at least that much.
Try not to get flustered. But recognize that every official you deal with, including the dean or the bank cleark, is just a government flunky. So expect some delays, meaningless paperwork and silly frustrations along the way. And keep both a blue and black ballpoint pen handy, because often you have to refill forms at the government's whim if you've used the wrong color. |
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thelmaharper.1921
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| shuanglu pijiu wrote: |
oh, well, if you "read" it somewhere, it must be staggeringly true. actually in modern day it's about 5,000 characters for a literate adult (went to high school, college, etc), not 2,000. and as 7969 pointed out (thank you by the way) i never said they were in common use. being a translator requires you to encounter and be responsible for a myriad of characters that are not in daily use. so what? i don't hear people say "recondite," "profligate," or "heteroclite" every day either... does that mean i shouldn't even know what they mean?
the whole point of me even saying that in the first place was not to be elitist or brag about my abilities. the point was to show that with some time and a boatload of hard work, you can achieve fluency and beyond in Chinese, but that it takes you sucking it up and getting out in the real world first - going out into society, trying to communicate, making mistakes, and learning how to get your point across. it has to start there... and at least attempting to do it yourself first instead of just having someone help you do it, is the first step.
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Well, we could turn that around on its head (the idea that "just because it is written somewhere doesn't mean it's true"). After all, just because some jackass on the board claims to read 15,000 Chinese characters doesn't mean it's true. I once worked with a pathological/ habitual liar. He claimed to work for the Chinese government as an agent to welcome foreign businesses here. On balance, I'd say that every single word out of his mouth was a lie-- including "the" and "and." |
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thelmaharper.1921
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 27
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El Chupacabra
Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 378
Location: Kwangchow
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| Considering the OP's needs, you shouldn't need to know too many characters to open a bank account or pay your phone bill. Oral Chinese will suffice. Simple phrases will do. No doctorate in b.s. required. |
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Riviello
Joined: 12 Apr 2011
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:29 am Post subject: |
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The easiest thing to do, in my opinion, is buy a Lonely Planet phrasebook. The one I have is a few years old but I assume it is still the same. Simply find the Banking section and point at the phrase - "I would like to open an account."
Another option, which I also have, is to buy an electronic dictionary/translator. You can buy them in most large stores, such as Carrefour or the electronic shop Gome. Simply type in what you want to say in English, push the Translate button and then the Chinese characters will appear. Show it to the bank teller.
The translator can be bought for around 500 rmb, some less and others more. Mine was a bit more expensive, but it has games, calendar, MP3 & 4. It even has a feature that will say the words in Chinese. That may help you learn to speak Chinese a little.
Quite frankly, I think anyone considering moving to China should buy one before they get here. They can be bought via Amazon. |
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mrwslee003
Joined: 14 Nov 2009
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:41 am Post subject: |
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Well Mr. Wild,
You asked a simple question about why someone would not help you and you got far more than what you bargained for, right?
I guess you have to look at their good intentions and leave the kitchen sinks
where they belong. I hope you don't get discouraged in asking questions.
Although I wouldn't blame you if you do feel otherwise.
Another perspective is that you may see others' problems are greater than what you have to deal with. All of a sudden you may see many positives in your situation. Everything is relative, no?
Cheers! |
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Riviello
Joined: 12 Apr 2011
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:10 am Post subject: |
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After re-reading the OP's original statement that he was having "problems with his bank", I agree that it is best to get someone to help you because a translator/phrase book probably wouldn't help.
Someone else mentioned "meaningless paperwork". That is the truth and it is best to be patient and not get frustrated.
The Bank of China takes the prize when it comes to paperwork and frustration, in my opinion. I recently had a little problem with them and definitely could have used some assistance of a Chinese person.
My Mandarin isn't the best, probably like most of the people who read Dave's, but I can get by for basic things like shopping, taxi etc... But, my Cantonese is non-existant. I live in Guangdong and most if not all of the store clerks, bank tellers speak Cantonese and don't understand my broken Mandarin.
I don't want to hijack the thread, but it is somewhat related - need help with certain non-simple matters.
When my current school told me to open an account at Bank of China, all I did was show the bank teller my translator - 10 pieces of paper, numerous red ink chops and 30 minutes or so later the account was opened and I was given an ATM card..
I lost my ATM card a few weeks ago and went to the bank with my passport and translator. They understood what the translator said - I lost my ATM card and need a knew card. The teller was trying to ask me something which I didn't understand. I tried showing her how she can write Chinese on my translator and it would tell me in English what she was saying, but she didn't understand or didn't want to understand.
Either way, one of the bank supervisors could speak a little English. She asked when I lost the card and why I didn't report it/apply immediately. I went to the bank and left the card in the ATM on the day I was going out of town for 5 days, so I applied after I returned. Eventually, she understood and filled out a bunch of forms, chops etc... She said I had to wait 7 days to get the new card. I then asked to withdraw money and she said No because I needed the card. Makes sense, but why did I have to wait 7 days? They gave me the card the day I opened the account. I once lost my China Construction Bank ATM card and they gave me a new one the same day. Bank of China is/has always been frustrating to me.
Even though I could see the forms near the teller, she was typing away on her computer for 90 minutes!! Eventually, she took the forms and gave me a receipt. I was there for 90 minutes just to apply for a new ATM card!! Bank of China is for the birds.
My point is - I definitely should have asked someone to help me that day. |
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daCabbie
Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:49 am Post subject: |
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Why spend 500rmb on a translator? I recently bought a swanky new 3G phone for 500rmb (granted its a knock-off, but I don't care). I downloaded a dictionary and I have web access to an online translator.
So for 500rmb I have a dictionary, translator, mp3, mp4 and a ton of other features that I still don't understand.
Living outside your home country means finding new ways to solve old problems. Learn to ask for help (from anyone willing) or learn to be self sufficient. If you can't do either, go home.
By the way, mine is bigger than yours. 20,000 characters and phrases and regular updates with more. Your brain will always be inferior to my technology! HAHAHAHA. Soon I will dominate the whole WORLD!!! AHHH HAAA HAAA. |
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Riviello
Joined: 12 Apr 2011
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like a nice phone. I bought my translator 4 years or so ago. I assume the prices have come down. I don't think the 3G stuff was out back then.
Either way, my point is that someone thinking about coming to China can buy via Amazon a basic electronic dictionary/translator before getting on the plane and basically be able to communicate with the local folk as soon as they get off the plane.
When I came to China I only had the Loney Planet phrasebook and a paper dictionary. They both helped a lot. I bought the electronic translator here in China. |
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