Job Discussion Forums

[D Betts]

I didn't say that rules are NOT important. My point is that the functionality of language has to go beyond rules sometime. I, too, believe in rules however if rules are the most important factor of language learning then students will miss a chance to mold the information that they have learned. English is, after all, a bastardization of many other forms of communication that have made their way over to the fair shores of blighty and then on to the four corners of the globe. My case in point: you understood every word I wrote but you were still willing to be pedantic. Moonraven, John et al, I'm sorry for the typos but after a few bevvies it always going to be that bit more challenging hitting the right keys.

P.S. I'm looking for a "job", not necessarily a "good" job.

Cheers INMEXICO.

Peace

[johnslat]

Dear inmexico,
I'm not a congenital nitpicker, but since we're teachers of the English language (I won't say "professionals" - that might start yet another brouhaha) I think we ought to make an effort, at least, to use the language correctly. I can easily live, for example, with scot 47's many typos (and I make some myself), and I'm not going to point out most mistakes that appear on these pages. In fact, I probably wouldn't have even posted about the "have lived" one. But I can't say I'm thrilled to see a fellow teacher writing - at least, as I interpret it - that just about anything goes. Then, of course, if you don't agree, well, it must be because you're a "grammar fop".
Hey, I wish Mr. Betts every success in finding a good job - however, I hope he'll be teaching conversational English rather than, say, grammar or writing.
Regards,
John

[D Betts]

Thanks Johnslat for making this a personal issue. Yes, you are right, I do aim to teach conversational English which is probably a damn sight more than you'll ever do just sitting at home questioning the abilities of others.
Johnslat, live the language, don't just study it; it's far more interesting and fun. I don't think you are a fob anyway because you didn't even understand my explanation of the present perfect and present perfect continuous...sorry, progressive.

[inmexico]

I like what D Betts has to say about functionality. I like what John has to say about making an effort. I even like what Don Cherry has to say about the Flames.....bit of a joke there for those who might get it.
I think there is a certain degree of subjectiveness that comes into play. One of the main flaws that I continue to see, is that English is often misinterpreted because it is difficult to establish the correct tone all the time because we cannot control someone else's perceptions....can we?
I know we try by providing the most concise writing we can, but there will always be a margin for error. ........dammit

Do you think there is any difference with word usage between Britons, Americans, Canadians? I don't mean grammatical rules, I am speaking more of iclination to use certain phrases etc.

[johnslat]

Dear D Betts,
It's probably not going to make you happy to learn that I'm not just "sitting at home questioning the abilities of others". I've been teaching EFL/ESL for over 30 years now. I don't think, by the way, that my having done so makes me any "better" or "worse" than other posters on this board. I don't even care about the mistake you made. What I do care about is what I see as your attitude about teaching - and maybe I'm wrong about that. If so, I'll be happy to apologize.
But why the heck should you care at all about what I think? For one thing, I could be totally wrong. And, for another, what difference does it make; I'm sure you'll get a (good) job and do one, too.
But I do wish you'd drop the condescending attitude, as in "Live the language". I've been living it for over 60 years and one thing I'm sure of is that I could "live it" for another 600 or even 6000 and still fall far short of mastering it. Hey, I make mistakes, too - but, when they're pointed out to me and I can see I was wrong, I won't fall back on a "it doesn't really matter anyway" defense.
Regards,
John

[D Betts]

John, I won't apologise for my "live the language" approach. I won't even point out your mistakes. But what I will do is admit you are right that it is a very difficult job to master our language, and even more difficult to teach it. My way is not to forget the groundwork of the past, it is merely to build a path for the students that allows them to freely express themselves in a real environment, and not a text book facade. I have only been teaching for 3 years in Japan so I have a lot to learn. Do you have any suggestions? I know, don't post messages when you're drunk. I don't suppose you have any relevant information to the original posting, do you? Jobs in Puebla?

Peace

[johnslat]

Dear D Betts,
I wish I did have some relevant info about jobs in Puebla because, although we got off to sort of a rocky start here, I think you probably are a good teacher - and will become an even better one. What comes across is your love of the language, and anyone who has that is likely going to be in this field for a long time. One of the things I enjoy most about teaching is learning - and I've learned enough over the years to truly appreciate how relatively little I know. When you think about it, every language is a universe and the fact that we can communicate (even as poorly as we often do) is amazing. Getting what's in one's head more or less into another's is a process that's fraught with pitfalls, and with all the nuances, tones, evasions, inferences, assumptions, shades of meaning, etc. that can get in the way, it's a miracle there aren't even more misunderstandings and miscommunications. So, the only "suggestions" I have about improving are simple, obvious ones: keep teaching (the best way to learn), reading, listening, writing and speaking (in what I'd call a descending order of importance). But then, I doubt there are any "short-cuts". In other words, "Live the language".
All the best in your job search.
Regards,
John

[ls650]

Sheesh! C'mon you guys, one poorly written sentence and it's World War 3.

You dudes are harshing my mellow.

[D Betts]

Dear John,
Do you have any suggestions on what I can read? Are there any seminal texts out there that can help me become a better teacher? How do you make learning grammar fun? It's ever so hard to convey grammar without getting looks of fear and boredom. Maybe it's the way I teach it. In Japan the students hated grammar because their whole education system is based on "filling the empty vessel". The students never question, rather they just sit in their chairs and copy everything down that the teacher puts on the board. So when they came to my lesson, grammar was the last thing they wanted to learn.

Cheers

[johnslat]

Dear D Betts,
I'm not so sure there ARE any good "seminal texts" out there that can help anyone become a better teacher. One problem is that many/most of them advocate one methodology to the exclusion of all others - and what I've found is that the "eclectic approach" seems to work best. Flexibility is, I'd say, essential since what works in one country, school, class - or even with just one student - may not (in fact, I'd go so far as to say, "will not") work so well in every case. Once again, experience is probably the best teachers' teacher. But you might find this short guide interesting:

http://www.eflpress.com/how_to_be_an_effective_efl.html

It's all pretty much what could be called "common-sense" stuff, but Lord knows it took me a while to aquire such common sense.
How to make learning grammar fun? Gee, you don't ask easy ones, do you? And, what's worse, you're probably not going to find my answer too helpful. The main ingredient to doing that is, I'd say, for the teacher him/herself to regard grammar as being "fun" (and, believe it or not, that IS possible). I don't think we can fake enthusiasm - but if/when we have it ourselves, it can and usually does get across to the students. Actually it's rather strange that I enjoy grammar - I'm not much of a rules sort of person and I'm terrible at math. But I'm fascinated by the mechanics of language all the same - and by the often "illogical logic" by which we somehow get (or try to, anyway) our meanings across to others. You do, I think, have to try to teach some "basic rules" (and many students, I've found, actually LIKE that; it gives them something to "hold onto" - of course, later comes the bad news: rules are frequently "broken". But that news comes gradually, when they're ready for it, and seems to me to be part of the "fun".) One mistake might be teaching grammar "in isolation", seemingly divorced from the other aspects of language. I think you have to integrate every grammar lesson with "practical application", either in writing or speaking, to demonstate to the students how this actually works in "real life". And that could include examples of how the "wrong grammar" can send the "wrong message" - how, for example, the meaning of the following two sentences is different:

1. He never saw snow in his life.

2. He's never seen snow in his life.

More later, inshallah, but now I've got to get ready for work. I hope some of this has been at least a little helpful.
Regards,
John

[MELEE]

[moonraven]

Not to put to fine a point on it, but I do think it might be prudent for folks who are asking for help in finding jobs here in Mexico to put their best foot forward--even in these threads--rather than their worst. Some of us wear two hats: we are ESL teachers and employers of ESL teachers.

[Ben Round de Bloc]

[moonraven]

Thanks! I wondered if anyone would notice that error in spelling. I think I have made my point, which is that most of us DO notice those things.

It's fine to manage language idiosyncratically--as a writer, I do that all the time--but not when I am teaching English; it is simply not fair to my students. Folks study other languages to increase their educational level, and they attempt to replicate the model presented by their teacher. They also make a considerable economic sacrifice to attend language classes here in Mexico--it is not uncommon for them to spend 50% of their disposable income on those classes. If the model is flawed--like many teachers in the public schools here who teach English but whose knowledge of the language is minimal, or native speakers who invent words and whose grasp of grammar and syntax is haphazard--the students do not receive good value for their time and/or money.

[D Betts]

Moonraven, have you ever lived in Puebla? I think you have but I'm not sure. If you have, why didn't you like it? When did you live there? I hope these questions are not TOO personal, but I am just interested that's all. Which hat are you wearing right now? ESL teacher or ESL employer? If you're an employer, where are you situated? And, do you have any positions available?
John, cheers for the website. Inmexico, muchas gracias por la informacion mi amigo.

Ki o tsukete.