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[andwar]

Which dialect of Vietnamese is easier for Native English speakers to learn, Northern, Central or Southern? I've heard that learning to speak Vietnamese in HCMC is particularly challenging because of the mix of different accents.

[just noel]

[bludevil96]

The southern dialect is the equivalent of the American English in the English world. When they sing, the north or central region will sound like the southern accent with the exception of the "r" and "d" which is pronounced as a "z" instead of its respective sound. The northern & central accent is like that of the British English accent with its own set of different names for certain things.

The standard or mainstream accent spoken by news anchors is that of the educated southern accent since the southern slang of the "r" is "g" and the "gi & v" sounds like the English "y" instead of it's respective sound of "Z" and "V". Much like the television anchors in the U.S. southern States, the pronunciation of English has to be mainstream so therefore, mainstream Vietnamese is southern.

[Mattingly]

[andwar]

Well...which dialect has more foreign speakers? I've heard of a few Tay in HN who have mastered Vietnamese to some degree; one chap in Da Nang who can speak the central dialect well; but nary a soul in HCMC!

[bludevil96]

The standard Vietnamese on the news is the northern Hanoian accent.

The "northern" dialect is considered standard. It's the prescriptive dialect, and it's taught in schools, even in Saigon.

This is why a Saigonese or Mekong Delta person can understand a Hanoian but a Hanoian won't understand a southerner very well.


One question:

Why do some southerners pronounce the "s" as "sh?"[/quote]

Sorry but you're completely misinformed. The standard mainstream accent is what I've stated above and is NOT taught in school outside of the central regions on down (Danang -->Ca Mau). It is also the opposite of your assumption in terms of who can understand whom. The northerners CAN understand the southerner but not vice versa.

In Vietnamese, the X is pronounced the same as the English S while the "sh" is pronounce the same as the English S. The English T is pronounced as "th" and the Vietnamese P is pronounced as B as in "Pede" meaning a gay male. Vietnam does not have an individual sound for the P except in the combination of the PH to sound like an F as in PHO.

[bludevil96]

andwar wrote:

Well...which dialect has more foreign speakers? I've heard of a few Tay in HN who have mastered Vietnamese to some degree; one chap in Da Nang who can speak the central dialect well; but nary a soul in HCMC!

I may be bias but for a foreigner, they should invest in the southern dialect because it's understandable to both the central and northern regions. If you speak with a Hue dialect in Saigon, you might as well be speaking in German.

Danang is where the dialect begins to transition into the southern tone but with a twang or drawl in certain words. This is similar to Phan Thiet where certain sounds like the oi is pronounce like au e.g. troi is trau, otherwise will sound completely southern. Quang Nam will for example turns the sound of the "a" in the Vietnamese language into the "o" sound therefore, they will say Viet Nom instead of Viet Nam.

[Mattingly]

[bludevil96]

"Bluedevil,

You are wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong,

No offense.

You've got it backwards.

Also, my comment was about the "s" being a "sh" which is what university graduates in parts of the south with pronounce.

I did not ask about the "x."[/quote]

I guess the best way to resolve this is to have some Viet kieus to verify who is right. you've missed the point of my explanation about the sound of the x/s. The problem with most Vietnamese is that in the Vietnamese language, the "s" is pronounced like our "sh" digraph. Visually, when they see the "s", they pronounce it as "sh". Interestingly, they can pronounce the word Saigon with an "x" sound in Vietnamese when it should be "shai gon". Most southerners don't pronounce the "Q" correctly in addition to the "gi" and "r" and "v" while the northerners will mispronounce the "r" and "d".

If you are Viet Kieu then you need to study your language more closely but if not, then take my word for it...I'm right about this. I can also tell you everything you need to know about the history of Viet Nam dating back to Ngo Quyen with 95 percent accuracy. And yes, they did defeat the Mongols 3 times.

[The Mad Hatter]

As far as the 's' being 'sh' , and the 'x' being 's' in the south, as well as the difference in "r" sounds, its all due to a velarisation and palatalization of these dental sonnorants, fricatives and glides. Possibly due to weather, possibly to the presence of similar sounds in neighboring regions, just as velarisation occurs in Holland, Denmark , and France on the continent. Pronunciation and phonetic differences have more to do with pan- regional relationships than intra-country relationships. ( the southern VN dialect sounds more like Cambodia or Thailand, because of proximity). In Northern Vietnam every dental and palatal consonant and glide, is articulated further front in the mouth. Conversely, when "s" is pronounced " SH" that is palatalization, which indicates a rearward migration of the location of the sounds.That explains why the "r" in the south and vowels are articulated more in the back of the mouth also. The southern dialect is rhotic, which means is has an "R" sound, which is similar to the difference between British and American English. Rolled or Buzzing 'r' sounds are not rhotic.

But to me consonant sounds are not the main difference. Its really about melody and intonation and word stress. And vowel length. The south has longer vowels and connected vowel sounds and diphthongs while the north has distinct shortened sounds. And shallower diphthongs. To my ear the Southern dialect is much easier on the ears, and more familiar to westerners in this respect. It has a more relaxed feel to it. The word stress and short vowels of the north is quite abrupt and percussive. But it's also very stylized and has a manneristic prang to it which seems contrived somehow.

[Jbhughes]

[Jbhughes]

As for the ongoing debate - I agree with Bludevil regarding the assessment on how speakers from the different dialects map consonant sounds to letters and the other points regarding the change as one heads further North. I also can testify that right the way up to Da Nang they do mispronounce '�i' and 'ơi' as �u.

I do disagree that Southern Vietnamese is seen as standard however. If you watch the National news and other country wide broadcasts you will clearly make out /z/s everywhere and perhaps even the archaic ʒ for 'gi' or a heavily rolled r. I'm not sure how important this is though. In the South, one will hear newscasts etc in a standard Southern accent with /j/s for 'gi' and 'd', but not 'v' and a decent /r/ for 'r', not some kind of weird /g/.

The 'sh' sound isn't exactly the same as English by the way, it's this: ʂ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_retroflex_fricative
Pretty similar though and is considered to be correct VNese - despite Hanoians not using it.


As for comparing Northern and Southern to British and American - I'm really not sure how this could be considered possible or even vaguely worthwhile or relevant.

[spycatcher reincarnated]

[bludevil96]

Here's proof. Please go to this link and click on any of the videos from HTV. This is HTV - gvt. TV.

http://www.htv.com.vn/truyenhinh/category_detail.asp?period_id=1&cat_id=186

The language spoken that you hear is the SOUTHERN accent. You will hear the pronunciations of the gi, R, V, and Q correctly - unlike southern slang because they have to use correct pronunciation of these consonants; the way it's taught in school. This is why the North and central regions can understand the south but not vice versa. This is broadcast in the north as well. I'm going to say it one more time, the southern Vietnamese CANNOT understand the dialects of the north and central regions, especially in places like Hue and the areas surrounding Hanoi. The reason is clear, the standard accent is the southern (minus mispronounced slang) and is broadcast all over Vietnam, even the blaring propaganda that you hear 3 times a day in the villages. If the reverse had happened, I guarantee you that the reverse would be true.

I highly disagree that the standard Vietnamese is northern or that the north enunciate more correctly; couldn't be farther from the truth . Ask the north Vietnamese to pronounce any words starting with: R and D. All you'll get is ZZZZZ. However, as an UNSTATED RULE for singing, the R and D is sung in the Z BY ALL regions(for what ever reasons) Does the northerners make less mistakes of the ACTUAL consonants than the south? YES, I have to agree. But the standard national dialect is SOUTHERN. For a foreigner who is learning Vietnamese, you may not notice these differences or nuances. An educated southern accent is what you see and hear on TV. Don't believe me? Video it with your phone and go and ask Vietnamese people what the accent is. I have money ready just in case anyone wants to make it more interesting.

[Jbhughes]

HTV as in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh_City_Television ?

Listen to VTV1:

http://www.tv14.net/vtv1/