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What are my chances of getting a job? Doors seem closed...
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coledavis

Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:51 am Post subject:

Yes, your written work is excellent. May I make a suggestion? Could you describe yourself as a London resident in your cv? Organisations who are bending over backwards to find a decent teacher may go with that, as they can use it as part of their marketing. (Don't forget, marketability is the key; if the school can market you, you can market yourself to the school.) You've then got a slight edge: you''ve got Proficiency level in English, which puts you ahead of many graduate native speakers (not all maths/science graduates, even with CELTA, will be as literate), those without CELTA/Trinity and those who have never lived in an English-speaking country. Look outside western Europe, as I think the market is saturated with CELTA/grad/native speakers.

naturegirl321

Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:34 pm Post subject:

Teacher in Rome wrote:

... A very flexible course tutor, who was willing to bend the rules.

She knew I didn't have the two years' experience (or even a CELTA) but I must have convinced her that I'd put my back into it. It was a nine month course, part-time, and I went on the dole to do it. She was a fabulous course tutor - very inspiring and down-to-earth at the same time. I worked very hard those nine months - reading up on all the theory, analysing all the ELT coursebooks I could find, TPing all who'd have me. The other people on the course were all practising teachers, so I learnt a lot from them, too. Lots of pair work, group work - it was a good mix, with plenty of opportunity to learn and contribute.

I did the DELTA at an "Institute for Higher Learning" - far away from the immediate reaches of Cambridge. Maybe that made it easier to bend the rules, too. It also made it much cheaper. I think I paid about �200 for the whole course.

But before you all start rushing to apply, the course was later dropped from the institute, and as far as I know, isn't running anywhere else. Shame - it was a great course, well-organised and with a very high pass rate. From our class of about 18, only one person failed.

Definite shame they dropped the course. Nice tutors and decent prices. That must have been long ago though, right? prices seem much much higher now.

Whta's TPing though?

Teacher in Rome

Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1286

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:33 pm Post subject:

TP - teaching practice

wiganer

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 189

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:03 pm Post subject:

Teacher in Rome wrote:

Just because your students ask you about where you went to uni isn't in itself a reason for teachers to have a degree.

I would say most teachers get asked where they went to uni by their students, I would say most students I have taught would want their teacher to be highly educated with at least a university education. I would personally if I was paying good money to be taught (insert language here).

Quote:

Far more pertinent is what visa requirements are (as you and Glenski have pointed out).

Most countries want teachers who are coming over to have a degree - what separates certain countries for the jobseeker is that some countries are more stringent that others with the degree requirement.

Quote:

But in itself, I don't think that a degree makes a teacher.

Oh, I think it does. I bet you would be singing a different tune if your kids were being taught in elementary/middle/ high school by people without a degree.

Quote:

I knew nothing about English, how it's structured, how it works etc, until I did my teacher qualification (DELTA, straight out of Uni - against all the rules, yes I know).

As a native speaker, once you have the gist of the grammar rules of English then you are at more of an advantage to teach grammar rules and structure than a non-native speaker.

Quote:

If you can learn all about your subject matter - and about teaching - without needing an unrelated degree (mine was), what then is the rationale for you saying a TEFL teacher needs a degree (if we assume that a visa isn't dependent on it)?

I'm not saying every teacher without a degree is not a good teacher.

What I am saying though is that a good general all round education and knowledge is an asset in teaching English, do you not think?

I have seen at least three teachers being relieved of a class because the students (admittedly the students were Russians - who want their teachers to be 'on the ball') were less than impressed with the teachers general knowledge and abilities - the three teachers in question didn't have a degree. I am not a betting man - but if you got all the crap teachers on this planet teaching EFL and placed them into two categories - teachers with a degree and teachers without a degree - I would put my entire life savings on which category would have the higher percentage of crap teachers.

Quote:

Wouldn't bet on that. A ton of people unable to get work in the UK might mean an awful lot more people looking for teaching work abroad. Lots of these are graduates...

We might have differing criteria on what a 'backpacker teacher' is - my
criteria is someone usually without a degree who teaches to live or to fund travels around the world, doesn't stay in one job too long anywhere, they tend to be in places where the immigration is less stringent such as Thailand, Indonesia or South America, not too many 'backpacker teachers' in South Korea for example. Because someone in the UK loses their job and decides to become a teacher doesn't make them a 'backpacker teacher' most people doing this fall into it by accident - including yourself by the sounds of it.

Wink

Mamainak

Joined: 27 May 2011
Posts: 31

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:46 pm Post subject:

HLJHLJ wrote:

Mamainak wrote:

AS I said, I don't have money to pay for it. If I get a job as a teacher and manage to save some money, sure, I'd get a BA.

If you need to make enough money to be able to send a wad home and save up for a future degree, then you probably need to rethink your plans.

EFL is not generally a money maker, and in your position, even less so. With a bit of hard work, a dash of flexibility and a lot of luck, you might be able to find a job that will just about cover your living expenses. But as a non-native speaker, with no degree, no experience, and passport/visa difficulties, landing a well paid job in the foreseeable future is beyond optimistic.

I know EFL is not a place to get rich but it would be a proper job with a constant income (hopefully). I'm not in a good position however you look at it: my current visa for the UK is limiting due to EU stuff, it's hard for me to find a job back home and I can't afford uni which would give me more opportunities. At the moment I have a job and as long as I have it, I'm ok. The teaching opportunities will come. I'll start by volunteering and gaining experience.

Mamainak

Joined: 27 May 2011
Posts: 31

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:47 pm Post subject:

naturegirl321 wrote:

Mamainak wrote:

Trust me, there is a huge difference between an au pair and nanny position.

I need a job with a pay not pocket money and I need something that would count as a professional teaching experience to put in my CV.

I'd love to stay in the UK but being a citizen of a non-EU country makes things difficult for me here.

Thanks for all your help!

Then to be a nanny, I'm pretty sure you need to get certified. Have you done that?

No, you don't have to be certified. Unless of course, you want to be a professional nanny and work for posh and traditional English families. I don't speak French and I don't play piano anyway Razz

Mamainak

Joined: 27 May 2011
Posts: 31

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:53 pm Post subject:

coledavis wrote:

Yes, your written work is excellent. May I make a suggestion? Could you describe yourself as a London resident in your cv? Organisations who are bending over backwards to find a decent teacher may go with that, as they can use it as part of their marketing. (Don't forget, marketability is the key; if the school can market you, you can market yourself to the school.) You've then got a slight edge: you''ve got Proficiency level in English, which puts you ahead of many graduate native speakers (not all maths/science graduates, even with CELTA, will be as literate), those without CELTA/Trinity and those who have never lived in an English-speaking country.

Look outside western Europe, as I think the market is saturated with CELTA/grad/native speakers.

Thank you

Yes, I'm definitely putting the fact that I'm 'from London' on cover letters, leaving out the exact number of years I've been living here.

I wasn't even hoping for Western Europe but it's worth trying countries like Italy or Czech Republic (in hope that new EU countries don't have the same strict rules as the old EU countries.)

Thanks for your advice!

AGoodStory

Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 738

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:07 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I wasn't even hoping for Western Europe but it's worth trying countries like Italy or Czech Republic (in hope that new EU countries don't have the same strict rules as the old EU countries.)

CR may be worth a try, along with the other newer members, but Italy is as "old EU" as they come--one of the original founding member states, or the "Inner Six" as they were known. I wouldn't waste any time on Italy, at least not until Croatia is a full member. Given that you are facing several issues that present a challenge to landing a teaching position, take the visa issue right off the table by applying only in countries where your passport will allow you to legally work right now.

Last edited by AGoodStory on Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

Mamainak

Joined: 27 May 2011
Posts: 31

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:24 pm Post subject:

AGoodStory wrote:

Quote:

I wasn't even hoping for Western Europe but it's worth trying countries like Italy or Czech Republic (in hope that new EU countries don't have the same strict rules as the old EU countries.)

Yes, I know Italy is old EU country but since I speak some Italian and have Italian friends to support me there, I might try contacting several schools and asking. I'm not expecting much though Smile

coledavis

Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:38 pm Post subject:

Italy. Yes, old country, lots of nat.speaks. However, if you have friends there and can risk the expense of what might be a futile visit, try to visit a school or four to show off your splendid proto-native accent. The personal appearance if they like you can make a big difference. But do note the chance of a wasted flight..

spiral78

Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Yes, I know Italy is old EU country but since I speak some Italian and have Italian friends to support me there, I might try contacting several schools and asking. I'm not expecting much though

Also, keep in mind that any job you find this way is 99% certain to be illegal. This puts you at risk of breaking the Schengen zone rules (penalties up to 10 year ban from the zone), risk of not being paid by an employer and having no legal recourse, and etc, etc. There are some pretty significant risks in working illegally.

The problem is that, no matter how many friends you have, no employer will be able to prove that you have skills that no EU candidate can offer. It's just not over-come-able at the newbie level.

Teacher in Rome

Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1286

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:23 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Dangerous to make assumptions, Wiganer. I didn't lose a job and then get into EFL by accident - I did it straight out of Uni (with a DELTA) and have been doing it, on and off, since then. We're talking about the best part of 20 years here - hardly "backpacking".

I think the thing that I most disagree with is this:

Quote:

I would say most students I have taught would want their teacher to be highly educated with at least a university education.

I've been thinking about the whole idea for a couple of days, and I think I disagree because I believe you can be highly educated without ever going to Uni. I'm not knocking it, by any means, but I also believe that if you're naturally "intellectually curious", you're going to go far. I know plenty of self-taught people, experts in their field (tho not doctors or lawyers, for example, but definitely including EFL teachers) who I'd employ way before I'd employ someone who only had a degree.

This is probably going to appal you, but I had hiring authority for training projects, where I couldn't give a stuff about whether or not the teacher had a degree. Far more important was a) ability to teach (experience / quals); and b) ease in a classroom full of Italians - just as keen on grammar explanation as your Russian students, by the sound of it. None of these attributes are exclusive to graduates...

And what you say here:

Quote:

What I am saying though is that a good general all round education and knowledge is an asset in teaching English, do you not think?

is what I also agree with. But - and this is the important part - you don't need a degree to have a good all round education!

I'm wondering if we're disagreeing because now pretty much half UK school-leavers go on to get a degree, so they're much more commonplace. Back when I graduated, somewhere less than 10% of the population went to Uni - and often to the Russell group of universities. Now if everyone and their dog has a degree, the whole thing becomes far more expected. Certainly not everyone on my DELTA course had gone to university, but nobody in their right mind would have said they were less than excellent teachers.

Teacher in Rome

Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1286

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:59 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Yes, I know Italy is old EU country but since I speak some Italian and have Italian friends to support me there, I might try contacting several schools and asking. I'm not expecting much though

In smaller, out-of-the-way places, you may well get lucky. But the problem is long-term (as well as other problems of not being legal). You might be able to work under the table for a year or so, but you can't really keep going that way. You'd find it hard to get freelance well-paying contracts (for which you need a partita IVA - impossible without residency, for which you need to be legit). This, in my opinion, is the far greater problem (in Italy) than not having a degree. (The school I work with has hired a language assistant with the papers, but without a degree or teaching qual - and now can't get rid of him because he has the papers!)

In my opinion, if you could find a way to work legally in Italy, you'd definitely find work. You'd be interesting to any institute offering exam preparation or YL. You might even be able to swing a lettorato contract (if the assistant I referred to can do it - NNS - you certainly can!).

One way would be to apply to a foreigner's university and sign up for an Italian course. You can then work for 20 hours a week to support yourself. Try the uni at Perugia, or John Cabot in Rome.

wiganer

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 189

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:35 pm Post subject:

Teacher in Rome wrote:

Because someone in the UK loses their job and decides to become a teacher doesn't make them a 'backpacker teacher' most people doing this fall into it by accident - including yourself by the sounds of it.

Dangerous to make assumptions, Wiganer. I didn't lose a job and then get into EFL by accident - I did it straight out of Uni (with a DELTA) and have been doing it, on and off, since then. We're talking about the best part of 20 years here - hardly "backpacking".

I didn't say you lost a job and got into EFL by accident. You got into EFL by accident though as most people do, probably near the end of doing your 'unrelated' degree, you thought to yourself 'I can't do much with this' and found something that you could do - most people get into EFL by accident
and there is nothing wrong with that - the smart ones upgrade their qualifications with relevant degrees and valid certification. (Which you did)

Quote:

I'm wondering if we're disagreeing because now pretty much half UK school-leavers go on to get a degree, so they're much more commonplace. Back when I graduated, somewhere less than 10% of the population went to Uni - and often to the Russell group of universities. Now if everyone and their dog has a degree, the whole thing becomes far more expected. Certainly not everyone on my DELTA course had gone to university, but nobody in their right mind would have said they were less than excellent teachers.

That is a good point you have made and as most EFL teachers starting out now are under 40, I don't think the pre-requisite of having a degree is such a great burden and it legitimises what we do. That is not to say there aren't great teachers without degrees because there are - I work alongside a fellow who hasn't got a degree and is a great teacher - would I employ him on the back of his CV? If I didn't know him I wouldn't but I would employ him knowing what he can do. That is what a teacher without a degree is up against - their CV against the many thousands of CV's out there that have the academic criteria that (most) employers are looking for. I was in the position of having no degree and wanting to teach English overseas - I knew at the time that having a degree was the only way to go forward if I wanted to progress with it. It was one of my smarter decisions.

santi84

Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject:

I don't disagree with everything you say wiganer but you sure do make an awful lot of assumptions about the general state of ESL/EFL from your own experiences.

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