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The Mad Hatter
Joined: 16 May 2010
Posts: 165
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 Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Ah yes the inevitable barrage, I didnt say the schools expect you to be a clown. And I didnt say the job was for clowns. And I didnt say that the correct attitude is to be a clown.
I said if you teach in a creative thought provoking and active way it will seem like what a clown is in their culture. It is just too extreme and overstimulating compared to what they are brought up with in education which is normally rather dull and boring, and what you envision as happening when they are "keeping you on your toes" is really like a show, and my guess is it would be fulfilling that purpose. Entertaining yes, interesting, yes, providing a service to humanity , yes. But educational- No.
You can say all you want about how inspiring and well planned and well your lessons are- and I would agree they probably are, but that same lesson comes off as fascinating because its novel, and entertaining.Not because its educational or thought provoking. It isnt denigrating the job you do, or the teaching industry. They might learn English or some other subject from you but it will definitely seem like a clown taught them that. It will never really be the same. |
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Slanted & Enchanted
Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| The Mad Hatter wrote: |
Ah yes the inevitable barrage, I didnt say the schools expect you to be a clown. And I didnt say the job was for clowns. And I didnt say that the correct attitude is to be a clown.
I said if you teach in a creative thought provoking and active way it will seem like what a clown is in their culture. It is just too extreme and overstimulating compared to what they are brought up with in education which is normally rather dull and boring, and what you envision as happening when they are "keeping you on your toes" is really like a show, and my guess is it would be fulfilling that purpose. Entertaining yes, interesting, yes, providing a service to humanity , yes. But educational- No.
You can say all you want about how inspiring and well planned and well your lessons are- and I would agree they probably are, but that same lesson comes off as fascinating because its novel, and entertaining.Not because its educational or thought provoking. It isnt denigrating the job you do, or the teaching industry. They might learn English or some other subject from you but it will definitely seem like a clown taught them that. It will never really be the same. |
Hilarious! I'd better bring my big red nose and shoes 5 times too big to me next time I go in to class.
OK, you've explained yourself this time and from what I've heard, the Vietnamese schooling system is in fact very dry; a teacher standing at the front of the class all the time, getting students to copy pages out of their textbooks etc.
I'm not a great teacher I think, but I really try. The students I have respond well to the tasks I give them, instructions are followed well, homework is usually completed in full, writing assignments are done to a high standard and they talk in class (In English) as much as they can.
While I like to have an easy going atmosphere in the class, I feel respect from the students. Perhaps deep down they are thinking this guy's a clown but from my perspective, the students in this country are a pleasure to work with.
Referring to another poster, if you're working for a school that expects edutainment and the dancing money routine and you continue to work there as you've got nothing else to bring to the table, perhaps that's all you deserve and should start eating more bananas.
I'll tell it like it is too. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| Mattingly wrote: |
Madhatter is calling it like it is. |
Well, I guess it's like they say, there's always a first time for everything  . As I stated previously, I'm not denying there are 'cowboy schools' out there and if someone chooses to waste their time by working at one than good luck to them, but that's got nothing to do with me and, I hope, the vast majority of people on this board.
| The Mad Hatter wrote: |
Ah yes the inevitable barrage, I didnt say the schools expect you to be a clown. And I didnt say the job was for clowns. And I didnt say that the correct attitude is to be a clown.
I said if you teach in a creative thought provoking and active way it will seem like what a clown is in their culture. It is just too extreme and overstimulating compared to what they are brought up with in education which is normally rather dull and boring, and what you envision as happening when they are "keeping you on your toes" is really like a show, and my guess is it would be fulfilling that purpose. Entertaining yes, interesting, yes, providing a service to humanity , yes. But educational- No.
You can say all you want about how inspiring and well planned and well your lessons are- and I would agree they probably are, but that same lesson comes off as fascinating because its novel, and entertaining.Not because its educational or thought provoking. It isnt denigrating the job you do, or the teaching industry. They might learn English or some other subject from you but it will definitely seem like a clown taught them that. It will never really be the same. |
Ah, gotcha! So the schools don't think you are a "clown", the job itself is not �clown�-like and you shouldn't act like a "clown" when you are teaching. But, heaven forbid, if you actually try to teach engaging lessons this will prove too much for Vietnamese students and the educational value derived from said lessons will effectively be zero and your students will see you as nothing more than a "clown". What a complete load of nonsense and, like others have said, the Vietnamese, on the whole, are delightful students.
I agree that the 'traditional' Vietnamese style of teaching English, as evidenced in the high schools, is exceptionally dry and boring. I have often heard that there is resentment by local high school teachers here concerning the much higher wages that are paid to native English speakers. I can sympathize to an extent, but the fact remains, if they had done their jobs better in the first place, we wouldn't have ours!
I would love, love to work in Scandinavia, but there is just no work for us there. Why would there be? The local teachers, judging by the results, do a fantastic job and those countries don't need us. Although the Vietnamese high school teachers do pretty well teaching grammar, if you've had four or five years to teach a student English and they can barely say "I like apples" than I'm sorry, but that's not my fault. Like I've said the students usually already have a fairly good grounding in grammar, but I've seen several cases where my students, (who, according to The Mad Hatter, must view me as nothing more than a "clown") make much more progress with me in a month than they must have done during their entire time in high school. Pretty remarkable, considering that I try to make my lessons too �active� and �thought provoking� for my students� limited capacities . Anyway, I've seen the results from both the 'traditional' Vietnamese way of teaching English and [apparently according to our students] the 'clownish' way many of us on this board do it. I have no hesitation in stating that our way is better. |
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The Mad Hatter
Joined: 16 May 2010
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| your students will see you as nothing more than a "clown". What a complete load of nonsense and, like others have said, the Vietnamese, on the whole, are delightful students. |
You don't get it at all. What Im saying is what we value as being educated in our culture, being creative, analytical reasoning, brainstorming, forming opinions, critical thinking, or using language for more than a couple words at a time, is typical clown behavior here. Or just an interesting diversion. Its not what they value in education. This isnt exactly a hotbed of literary and academic enlightenment when the highest aspirations of students in scholarly schools is to be a ceo but cant even imagine for what sport of company if you ask them.
I do think they are delightful, but they dont have the same values and goals as our education seems to want to measure with. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| The Mad Hatter wrote: |
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| your students will see you as nothing more than a "clown". What a complete load of nonsense and, like others have said, the Vietnamese, on the whole, are delightful students. |
You don't get it at all. What Im saying is what we value as being educated in our culture, being creative, analytical reasoning, brainstorming, forming opinions, critical thinking, or using language for more than a couple words at a time, is typical clown behavior here. Or just an interesting diversion. Its not what they value in education. This isnt exactly a hotbed of literary and academic enlightenment when the highest aspirations of students in scholarly schools is to be a ceo but cant even imagine for what sport of company if you ask them.
I do think they are delightful, but they dont have the same values and goals as our education seems to want to measure with. |
I see. I understand what you are saying now, but, quite simply, that's the nature of the beast and one should either accept it or look at doing something else. I agree that, on the whole, the Vietnamese aren't exactly the most intellectually curious people I've ever encountered, but so what? Our role is not teaching art appreciation, history, philosophy, literature etc. We are here to teach English as a foreign language - that's it!
If our students improve their understanding and communicative skills in English than we have done our jobs and earned our pay cheques. How our students choose to use this education (and it is education) is up to them. Like I stated on page one of this thread, I hope that some of my students will use their English skills to travel, read great books and watch interesting films and documentaries. I'm sure that a small minority of them will. However, if someone wants to teach literature or art history or critical thinking or whatever than I suggest they choose a different subject area and teach this instead of EFL. |
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haller_79
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| However, if someone wants to teach literature or art history or critical thinking or whatever than I suggest they choose a different subject area and teach this instead of EFL. |
Agreed. I think my initial comment was a bit immature (was having a bad day) - its a job and if it wasn't needed it wouldn't exist. It just irks me a bit the way some schools and some teachers go about their business here. I suppose at the end of the day that's none of my business though  It is what it is and we do what we do. I also happen to think the Vietnamese are very intelligent and capable, and in the right hands they generally go far, I have taught at a school in Australia and the Vietnamese kids there are generally high achieving. Anyway enough.
BTW anyone who is interested in this country beyond the surface level should read 'Vietnam: Rising Dragon' by Bill Hayton - it's a very insightful book and a hell of a lot more informative than this board. |
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Mattingly
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 249
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:35 am Post subject: |
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As for the decline of EFL in Saigon, enrollments at some of the big chains are down.
I think that General English may be declining with the rest of the demand that will be for
Young learners/kids
Academic test prep (IELTS, TOEFL, and some TOEIC).
Any other opinions on this? |
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Skyblue2
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| Mattingly wrote: |
As for the decline of EFL in Saigon, enrollments at some of the big chains are down.
I think that General English may be declining with the rest of the demand that will be for
Young learners/kids
Academic test prep (IELTS, TOEFL, and some TOEIC).
Any other opinions on this? |
I think it's a product of inflation. Young adults view English study as more of luxury. They can suspend it for a while and take it up later. Parents seem to be more committed when it comes to the little ones. They want them to soak it up and keep at it when they are malleable.
When inflation comes down and incomes come back (maybe not for a long time) I think there will still be a big GEP market for young adults. |
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LettersAthruZ
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 466
Location: North Viet Nam
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Mattingly wrote: |
As for the decline of EFL in Saigon, enrollments at some of the big chains are down.
I think that General English may be declining with the rest of the demand that will be for
Young learners/kids
Academic test prep (IELTS, TOEFL, and some TOEIC).
Any other opinions on this? |
HAVE had friends who teach at centres/schools tell me that general enrollment is down SOMEWHAT (not at all down by HUGE numbers, but declining nonetheless)....but I am actually seeing an increase in demand for TOEFL and IELTS test prep work......I don't know.....but things are always very different in The North vs. The South...... |
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chim35
Joined: 25 Jun 2010
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| The Mad Hatter wrote: |
You don't get it at all. What Im saying is what we value as being educated in our culture, being creative, analytical reasoning, brainstorming, forming opinions, critical thinking, or using language for more than a couple words at a time, is typical clown behavior here. |
Um, excuse me, but I don't think people in the west are taught things like critical thinking, analytical reasoning or whatever. They're taught to memorize and conform. often the things they memorize aren't even true, but are "truths" that support established power. People who show real independence of thought are generally discouraged or punished in our society, unless that thought supports the power elite.
I like to think I learned critical thinking, but I had to teach myself, nobody taught me.
Admittedly, the situation is even worse here. |
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