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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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 Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
| It is B****ks. It does not work with teaching Quadratic Equations or German Grammar. Why should it work in ESOL ? |
Why doesn't work with German? |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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My German colleague (I asked) says it does indeed work with German language: doesn't teach grammar specifically, so can't say precisely on that point.
To qualify the statement a bit (again):
Neither of us believes that it works with all students, in every situation, but there is a place for negotiated syllabi. To re-iterate, usually with intermediate + level students in some specific academic or professional field, where their goals for English are shared across a class, and are directly related to the field.
Last edited by spiral78 on Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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That's what I would have guessed. I've observed Modern Languages teachers using the same methodology as English teachers, to the same, good, effect. I really don't think that a particular language would be exempt from any methodology.
On the other hand, I have also had to deal with some French, Spanish, Italian teachers who will make all sorts of claims to the contrary. Teacher-led lecture style lessons are the ONLY way for their language to be taught. No negotiation there whatsoever - for the DOS, let alone the learners. 
As for quadratic equations, I always cheated in my maths tests... |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| As for quadratic equations, I always cheated in my maths tests... |
I'm weak at maths as well. There is probably a reason many of us teach language rather than quadratic equations and etc. 
Quite a lot of our Dutch teachers are seriously wedded to a very teacher-led style, putting them out of touch with this particular university overall.
I once participated in a study on how teachers' own early learning experience affected their beliefs about what kinds of things are effective in classrooms. No surprise: our own early education plays a very significant role on what we think comprises effective teaching: regardless of research in the field, our own direct teaching experience, or teacher training, etc, etc.
I think it's true that teacher who themselves come from very traditional education systems tend to cling to such methods (understandably) even though ideas about effective education may have changed substantially.
I myself am a bit of a freak, coming from an experimental, experiential early learning background, in which even elementary students had total freedom to do what they wished. Interestingly, the research on our school and the nine others that applied the method showed substantially higher scores on every possible measure, but the programme was limited to children who fit a particular profile and the measurements could therefore have been skewed. In any case, I'm entirely comfortable with student-led learning in many (not every) situations, and this has served me well in my own teaching context, though I seriously doubt I'd be very successful in other situations. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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spiral78 posted
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| I once participated in a study on how teachers' own early learning experience affected their beliefs about what kinds of things are effective in classrooms. No surprise: our own early education plays a very significant role on what we think comprises effective teaching: regardless of research in the field, our own direct teaching experience, or teacher training, etc, etc. |
I agree, this doesn't sound surprising. Perhaps this is why some Japanese English language teachers teach English classes mostly (or entirely) in Japanese; it's how they learned English themselves.
spiral78 posted
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| In any case, I'm entirely comfortable with student-led learning in many (not every) situations, and this has served me well in my own teaching context, though I seriously doubt I'd be very successful in other situations. |
I would disagree with you here, though certainly in classes where the people are not in a ESP class nor share the same industry background, it would be more difficult. Some negotiated syllabi have been done even with low level students, though obviously the negotiation in the earlier parts had to be done in the students' first language (which would really only be feasible in monolingual classes).
Sashadroogie posted
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I really don't think that a particular language would be exempt from any methodology.
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I agree with you, and find it discouraging that my wife, who is a Japanese language and literature teacher disagrees. She certainly does conduct interactive classes, but she seems to think some language methodology is not very suitable for Japanese language classes. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| my wife, who is a Japanese language and literature teacher disagrees. She certainly does conduct interactive classes, but she seems to think some language methodology is not very suitable for Japanese language classes |
I've worked with non-native English speaking English (not their L1) teachers who learned and continue to take a very traditional role in a classroom (not saying your wife is at the far end of the spectrum, but that they are!). They do tend to be effective with low-level learners from traditional learning backgrounds, who then are 'eased into' different methodologies as they move up the ladder of acquisition.
My modern languages colleagues use a whole range of methods and approaches - from quite student-centred to very prescriptive. They can be very much welded (not simply wedded!) to what they feel works. This makes in-service professionalisation an interesting challenge 
No, I don't dispute that negotiated syllabi can be used in many situations, but I doubt that it's the most useful approach for most lower level groups, and obviously for classes made up of students from mixed fields - I think we'd agree on that, gaijin. |
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MarkM
Joined: 28 Apr 2011
Posts: 55
Location: Lianyungang, China
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Interesting discussion. To answer the original question, I don't think student-centered means letting students choose what they want to do. Learning objectives have to be aligned with student learning goals, but this is a strategic process which students are not in a position to direct and control. Having said that, in terms of a student-centred approach, it is important that the presentation of new information is linked with student prior learning. And this needs to be done in a way that interests and engages students. Making sure that this happens is, IMO, the essence of the teaching challenge. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think student-centered means letting students choose what they want to do. Learning objectives have to be aligned with student learning goals, but this is a strategic process which students are not in a position to direct and control |
Again, in fact, some students are indeed in just such a position. We were talking about those such as:
1. post-grad students with specific tasks they need to accomplish in English: dissertations or presentations
2. business/government professionals needing to polish their English for specific tasks upcoming, such as international meetings
And some other contexts.
I'm not saying by any means that EVERY student is in a position to be able to decide exactly what goals he/she needs to reach, but it's equally true that not EVERY student is NOT in such a position.
Blanket statements about every student and learning situation in the whole world are necessarily suspect. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:43 am Post subject: |
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spiral78 posted
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| I'm not saying by any means that EVERY student is in a position to be able to decide exactly what goals he/she needs to reach, but it's equally true that not EVERY student is NOT in such a position. |
Very true.
spiral78 posted
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| Blanket statements about every student and learning situation in the whole world are necessarily suspect. |
Yes, hence why I have often opposed some that have been made by some people on this forum. Sometimes it is more a question of teachers not accurately explaining what it is they do, or simply using unusual meanings to represent what theories are really behind their teaching.
spiral78 posted
| Quote: |
| My modern languages colleagues use a whole range of methods and approaches - from quite student-centred to very prescriptive. They can be very much welded (not simply wedded!) to what they feel works. This makes in-service professionalisation an interesting challenge |
I hear you. I work with some colleagues that use things that border on the obscure to just tried and true little tricks that they feel they are successful. The problem is when they decide not to use anything else, "because this approach works so well" (in his/her opinion). Kind of like a one trick pony, or a magician that only knows one trick. it might be a pretty good one, but still, most shows need a little bit more to keep the audience entertained. |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
| I agree with you, and find it discouraging that my wife, who is a Japanese language and literature teacher disagrees. She certainly does conduct interactive classes, but she seems to think some language methodology is not very suitable for Japanese language classes. |
A lot of Japanese think that their language and culture is unique (all of them are!) and so participatory/CLT is incompatible with Japanese or with Japanese studying English. Sato in The Language Teacher argued this point rather articulately. That attitude can be an obstacle to implementing certain methodologies. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| A lot of Japanese think that their language and culture is unique (all of them are!) and so participatory/CLT is incompatible with Japanese or with Japanese studying English. Sato in The Language Teacher argued this point rather articulately. That attitude can be an obstacle to implementing certain methodologies. |
Yes, you got a point there. All languages have some bumps and ridges. As to the cultural aspects, only Esperanto would fall short there.
As to the unique culture, if you felt your culture is unique, it seems easy to understand that language would be included in that "group of uniqueness". |
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