Job Discussion Forums

snollygoster · Joined: 04 Jun 2009 Posts: 478

this is an attitude shared among foreigners who I know.

110% agree. It only takes a short trip out of Vietnam to get the feeling everyone in Vietnam is out to harrass you and make even the smallest most insignificant transaction a world shaking event of "them and us" types.

The phrase "You catch more flies with honey" has no significance in Vietnam, where I feel the honey would be eaten by the hunter.

I recall an argument with an Immigration officer who insisted I did not have a valid visa for Vietnam, and he was about to get me taken away, when to save his face I turned to the page where the visa was. Certainly not thankful that I had just saved him embarrassement, he could only grunt, glare and stamp my exit with a scowl. Next time I would allow him to arrest me and let him be the centre of an international incident!
I guess his "bosses" would close ranks behind him and keep him safe anyway.

mark_in_saigon · Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Posts: 837

Sounds like the above mentioned visa incident might have been viewed as an income earning opportunity and you either did not realize it or were not willing enough to play your part. Just a guess.

Another feature of their culture is the nouveau riche syndrome we all see. If someone has reached the point of owning a car, he often has also taken ownership of the middle of the road as well. We all know the terrible reputation the Viet Kieu have among their own people, how so many of them enjoy lording it over their poor, unenlightened brothers.

In the states, my last real job was in a large corporate environment, part of which had a manufacturing component. Of about 500 builders, about 20 were VN born. When the quarterly awards were given, about half of those awards went to the VN. We can easily see that there are some very intelligent, motivated and capable people among the VN. The same culture that makes those builders the best ones also creates these nightmare incidents we are discussing. It may be that suffering through their often dreadful lives gives them extra motivation to excel when given the chance. This has traditionally been a male dominated society with little sympathy for the feelings and needs of those who are in an inferior position. The communist system did not do much to improve that, most of these communisms being actually more totalitarian, rather than embracing the true theoretical tenants of communism.

While I generally agree that this system is mostly a mess, I do find that we have some solutions and rewards. First, we are getting paid a far higher amount than they are, average wage nationwide being somewhere around a grand, of course no one knows for sure, but close enough for understanding. So, we can certainly afford to pay up when we find that a business does not suit our needs. Of course, paying up does not always improve service, sometimes it is an even worse value, but the point is, we can afford a good life here, although we all have to often accept the ridiculous service and delivery of the product. Most of the important things in my life cost 1/3 to as low as 1/10 of what I must pay in the states. Grit your teeth and enjoy the product, the price you pay for the price you pay is the price you pay.

We should all understand that the more of our guys we see, the less enamored "they" are with us. Life in District 1 is very different from life in Hoc Mon, or anywhere they rarely see us. Get out of the cities (and touristy areas), and it is even better. Not that service markedly improves, but life in general does to the point where the aggravations become much smaller. Of course, this is not where the jobs are, so, not much most of us can do about that.

By the way, this raises the question of what we are doing to make them lose their love for us. I am sure we have all seen in our travels out of town how friendly they can be, and in the metro and tourist areas how we have become chumps and targets. What are we doing to poison the relationship? Another question that is mildly related, I have posted it before but somehow it dematerialized, perhaps it is just too hard for us to face: why is it that when we (foreigners in VN) see each other in the streets, the majority of us look away and pretend we do not exist to each other? I used to be so innocent about this, and assumed my fellow westerners would love to chat and share notes on where to go and what to avoid and all, instead, they mostly want to avoid each other! I can understand not traveling the beaten path, but when we are less than 1% of the people here, it would seem we could at least smile at each other and recognize each others existence. One gender is even more adamant about this concept of ignoring their own people than the other, I can really only speak for myself on all this, but it is interesting to speculate, of course. It is my opinion that we are not totally innocent in the way that the VN perceive us, and if we want our best results, we need to look at our own personal shortcomings and understand, it aint just them who is at fault here.

We have to understand the realities of their system (it is their system), which certainly would not meet western standards, and work within it, getting the rewards that are out there, and accepting and dealing with the built in deficiencies. When purchasing here in large quantities for a western business, the buyer has to accept all this, making extra allowances he would never accept back home, closer inspections, more built in uncertainty on execution as per agreement, extra insurance, more risk, he does this primarily because of the superior price.

My main suggestion for us all is this: understand that there are a few very special people out there who can help us enormously. Rather than thinking your most important amigo here is a beer drinking buddy from your native country, understand the most important person in your life is a VN who can manage the majority of your interactions with the VN (other than your work, of course). Just as products cost you a small fraction of what they do back home, this special person will not have to cost you 20 bucks an hour either, in fact, one of the greatest rewards for him/her is likely the special improvement in skills acquired by exposure to your splendid self. In return, this person can get you the normal prices on most everything, help you understand what is really happening, get you in the right places, avoiding the wrong ones and cause untold happiness. He/she might even be counted on to protect you from injury or be instrumental in saving your life. I have seen it happen with my own unworthy eyes.

It is my opinion that most of our guys do not make their best choice in this important aspect of our lives. This is a subject that is not really proper for this forum. But, to the new guys here, or those who are considering coming over, I would say, yes, you can likely get a job, but it is probably not going to be as rewarding as you expect, and not until you have established yourself. This is not a great place to come just for a visit, or to just work for a few months, or to come with limited resources backing you up. You have to dedicate yourself to this as your new home, and understand that the VN are really your people now, as much or more than the westerners, who you should still try to help and be friendly with. I would never recommend a person move here without an extended visit first. Most people should be able to write this place off without a visit if they will just study the scene in detail. It is pretty obvious what it is and is not.

snollygoster · Joined: 04 Jun 2009 Posts: 478

So true- So much doom and gloom, BUT when one of we foreign devils is lucky enough to find a good honest local, (they ARE there), how the world changes for the better.
I have been lucky indeed with friends, but not so lucky with jobs and business dealings-but having a good local on side sure smooths out the wrinkles.