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Sashadroogie · Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:02 am Post subject:

Female emancipation in Turkey - interesting idea.

billy orr · Joined: 15 Jul 2009 Posts: 229

I say chaps, I think you're getting a bit out of order there in your representations of Turkish womanhood. Emancipation is a reality for many women, even though it is an uphill struggle. Your comments could be construed as trying to keep them in their place, although I know that was not really your intention.

Sashadroogie · Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:07 pm Post subject:

I always saw Turkey as a man's world. Women in their 30s still answerable to their parents. Honour killings out east. General maganda behaviour of large numbers of men. Not much emancipation there. True, the great Mustapha Kemal improved things immensely in many ways, but in terms of the street, not to0 much has changed. That is why I am unsure of this term 'emancipation' with regard to Turkey.

No offence intended to Turkish womanhood at all - some of the loveliest people I've met in TEFL in fact.

billy orr · Joined: 15 Jul 2009 Posts: 229

Despite the very obvious difficulties facing women, it should also be recognised that in the academic world, for example, Turkish women are considerably more emancipated than their counterparts in UK in some respects, particulalry in the academic world. Far more Turkish women teach and study in physics and chemistry departments, for example. And it wasn't the Turkish authorities who had to introduce positive discrimination measures to rectify a chronic imbalance in the number of male- female medical students, it was the British government. Girls who make it to high school in Turkey seem far less influenced by gender discrimination in their life choices than their counterparts in UK.

And of course, as you say Sash, the Republic made a good start, with women voting in Turkey before women in France and Switzerland. But these and the honour killings are all cliches of course. Beneath the surface an awful lot is going on and I am not convinced by arguments that portray women in Turkey as being in an extremely difficult situation.

Caterinamh · Joined: 27 Jul 2006 Posts: 140 Location: Istanbul

billy orr · Joined: 15 Jul 2009 Posts: 229

I object strongly to the portrayal of Turkish women either as poor downtrodden and helpless or else spoilt and rich just waiting to find a wealthy man to provide for them. Many Turkish women are extremely assertive and winning daily battles to advance their rights. Most of the social progress in Turkey currently is happening as a result of the efforts of these women. The constant portrayal of women here as nothing more than victims undermines the efforts of these women to move forward.

asalak · Joined: 13 Mar 2011 Posts: 27

Sorry, are we talking about poor women here? Poor kurdish women? Poor kurdish women graduates? Young poor kurdish women graduates? Young poor kurdish alevi women graduates? Etc.

I suspect the stories will be rather different in each case.

Sorry for being a smartarse and contributing little to an interesting debate, but you get my point.

Caterinamh · Joined: 27 Jul 2006 Posts: 140 Location: Istanbul

@Billy
I am not "giving a portrayal of women as nothing more than victims" however I am pointing out a very clear reality for many women in the country. @ Asalak... I don't believe anyone can specifically label this is a "Kurdish" issue as well, as the issue goes beyond "ethnic" background. I do see what you are trying to point out.

What I am trying to say is that Billy's comment that a problem isn't highly evident is just scandalous. Please take a look at the statistics related to women's rights in this country and the daily stories in the newspapers. It's not undermining the issue to bring awareness to it.

Nothing is black or white... of course not ALL women in this country are suffering a barbaric existence. I know very strong Turkish women as I also know western women who are suffering abuse. My point is when you as a woman are expected to work full time and then service your husband, brother or whatever male figure resides in your household that is far from being seen as an equal. This is the expectation for many in this country.

When a woman has to ask permission to be out after dark beyond the age of 18 I'd also find that to be less than equal. Take a look at the metro and buses after dark. Take a look at the looks men give women for being out . This isn't just a Kuro mentality this is deeply embedded in the idea that what the men in the family say goes. From the black sea region to eastern Anatolian .

I have many Turkish friends that are from a variety of places and these ideas and experiences come from their reflections on their lives. NOT just my personal opinions. There are also those strong , assertive women who are trying to make a difference however believe me.... it's still very much an uphill battle. Idea

Discussing the reality hardly

@ Billy " undermines the efforts of these women to move forward"

Finally, as a woman myself I can speak of my personal experiences of being treated less than equal solely because of my gender. I have lived it, I have seen it , I have heard about it and I continue to read stories in the papers that clearly show that the government doesn't do enough to stop it. Ok, that's my two cents. Smile

Sashadroogie · Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:26 am Post subject:

Sorry Billy, but I'm with Caterinamh on this matter. In fact, I'm surprised that there would even be debate on it...

In any case, I fear we have wandered off-topic. Perhaps need a separate thread?

billy orr · Joined: 15 Jul 2009 Posts: 229

All I�m saying is it would be better to see women in Turkey as struggling to improve their situation rather than as feckless victims. I assume you would agree with that statement, catarina.
Saying �not in an extremely difficult situation� is not the same as 'not in a difficult situation at all'. If you want clarification,, I would describe the situation as very difficult, on a scale of 1-9, at point 6 or 7 where 9 is extremely difficult and 1 is not very difficult at all.
The surface that I talked about is the situation that you described, but I believe that beneath the surface there is progress being made in people�s attitudes. Attitudes against women are being challenged, but not they way they are challenged in UK and US for example. That is why I think it is easy to miss some of the progress.
The situation of women in Turkey is extremely complex. Paying too much attention to stereotypes and extreme cases distracts from where the main struggles are taking place in terms of laws and their interpretation by the courts, their application by the authorities and how people manage their relations at work and in the family.
Yes, sash, we seem to be off topic. Anyone know how to split a thread?

Otterman Ollie · Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:49 pm Post subject:

Ok now everyone sit up and take note!!!!!!!
What we have here is one of those rare occassions where a healthy and interesting debate which is not totally connected with teaching is allowed to continue. Now how long will it be allowed to run its course until someone......................?????????????????????????

bulgogiboy · Joined: 23 Feb 2005 Posts: 803

billy orr · Joined: 15 Jul 2009 Posts: 229

The comments from bulgo and westbrook illustrate how difficult social expectations can be for men too.

delal · Joined: 04 Oct 2005 Posts: 251 Location: N Turkey

Yes but men don't generally get beaten even tortured within marriage-both physically and psychologically- they don't resort to committing suicide or get killed by their brothers here (let alone get given away in a deal/feud between families). And it's not just on the lower end of the ladder either.
It's the men here who are brought up with the idea that they have a God given right right to treat women however they see fit for whatever reason in the knowledge that they will most likely get away with it.
And yes, you foreign men go into shock when you discover that you are a meal ticket on some level. How do you think we foreign women feel when we realise how we are perceived?

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

This is slightly off-track in the sense that it didn't happen in Turkey - but it's more on-track than a general discussion in that it occurred in an English language classroom:

A Russian girl from Kazan, explaining that in her city, the male muslim inhabitants expect girls to be concerned solely with home and family, though the rest of the population (she describes them as 'Russian') do not share these views. So, she and her 'Russian' sisters walk freely, uncovered, and go to university and become professionals with the support of their fathers and husbands, while the muslim girls in her city have to be covered and are expected to be primarily concerned with domestic issues. She described them as 'subservient' in manners. Her English is very good and she's highly intelligent: I'm not sure she realised that she has two female Turkish classmates at that point.

The two Turkish girls in the class have since demonstrated some complex reactions: they have praised some cultural aspects of Turkey, but their writing expresses some frustration at the limitations placed on women.

I'm not going to get into this in the classroom, but it's extremely interesting to watch the Turkish and Russian girls lunch together (they've become friends) and I wonder if they are talking about cultural expectations and their own hoped-for futures. It's all so directly relevant to them - it would be really interesting to know.