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Sublime
Joined: 23 Apr 2011
Posts: 90
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 Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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I'd say a 6 day working week is a negative aspect of Hong Kong (one of the reasons I knocked a job offer on the head a short while back). Maybe I'm just lazy, or just enjoy having "me time" to "live".
Hanging out with the overworked Filipinos on Sundays and dreading the start of the working week.........no siree! |
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YujiKaido
Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 49
Location: ? Hong Kong ?
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| Sublime wrote: |
I'd say a 6 day working week is a negative aspect of Hong Kong (one of the reasons I knocked a job offer on the head a short while back). Maybe I'm just lazy, or just enjoy having "me time" to "live".
Hanging out with the overworked Filipinos on Sundays and dreading the start of the working week.........no siree! |
Yeah I hope I don't have to work 6 days a week, but for myself, I don't want to teach and live in HK or East Asia for that matter because I can just make money while having fun in another country, even though making money is important, the most important thing to me is I like to teach kids and I don't think I will be dreading it if its something I like to do. Even though when I taught in Korea, it was a nightmare at times having no formal training, no curriculum, teaching myself anything I could about teaching, and making lesson plans that were awful in the beginning but by the time I left Korea, I had seen how far I had come, I still left my school wishing I would of stayed longer because some of my students, not all of them of course made it a rewarding experience, I have never forgotten.
Also this is something I have been wanting to do this since I first left America for my first study abroad in Japan 7 years ago. I just love East Asia culture and society and will be proud to call Hong Kong or where ever I end up in the long term my home. |
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Joshua2006
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| RiverMystic wrote: |
Not meaning to be a downer, but sisterscream is painting a rather Pollyanna image of HK which just doesn't translate into reality for many people, both local and expat. Since the thread is entitled the pros and cons of living and teaching in HK, it needs a bit of balance. You should understand the realities and challenges of living here, otherwise you won�t be prepared for them. So I will mention some of the less pleasant aspects of life in HK, and some of the negative developments that are of increasing concern for locals and expats alike.
In one or two previous posts I quoted international surveys which show that the general level of well-being amongst locals and expats in HK has fallen drastically in recent years (12th lowest happiness rating of 180 cities in China). I know many people who have come here and left in short time because they could not handle living here. Convenience and speed are valued above human connection and simple enjoyment of life. This can create an extreme sense of disconnection and alienation from people. Many workplaces mirror these values, with human beings being treated as cogs in a machine without respect for the needs or individual gifts and merits. This includes many, but not all, schools. Some schools are nice places to work. But you really need to select carefully, because if you don�t you can end up in a really hellish place. Confucian hierchical values mean that workers have to kowtow to those senior to them, leading to all kinds of power abuses. As just one worst scenario example, one principal I used to work for loved to hold meetings on Friday evenings which ran till 7 or 8 pm (5 hours, no break). This included a two hour speech by the principal, with the staff being completely silent throughout the meeting - i.e. no staff/management interaction.
My wife was one of the people who was completely unable to stand HK. She found it impossible to even talk to people here, let alone make friends. She became deeply depressed and hated the place with a passion. I have to agree with her that HK is not a friendly city, and if you don�t have social connections at work you will have to join some social activity, otherwise you will most likely be completely isolated. It is virtually impossible to make eye contact with people here, let alone communicate with them in public paces. People are obsessed with their mobile devices, and completely disinterested in all those around them. Commercialisation of virtually every facet of life is what defines HK above all else. This is equally true of education, which is completely commoditised.
In my opinion government policy has gone badly astray in recent years, creating an obsession with finances and financial security which is strangling the spirit of the place and its people (exacerbated by the insane dash for cash that is the meaning of life in the new China). The irony is that most people here are pretty poor and live in very poor housing, with the average HK household income being $18 000/month, while rents have skyrocketed. HK has the greatest wealth gap between rich and poor of any developed economy in the world, and the 12th worst of all regions on the planet, ten places lower even than Zimbabwe.
I suspect these problems will get worse in the years to come, and there will be increasing social unrest, as the property magnates that run the place have too much power and those in official power are unaccountable. Time will tell. |
I really don't agree with this at all....but then I only have 18 months of HK to comment on.
The locals are all friendly - I haven't met an 'unfriendly' one yet. Local restaurants and convenience stores all know me and whilst not being overly-friendly, all acknowledge me and my family when we walk by. McDonalds staff in my building just need to see me walk in and my coffee is ready before I get to the counter....
Local bus drivers are also friendly and the other people on the bus who I see every day are also nice - a genial greeting every morning. We don't start conversation, but pleasantries are exchanged.
Agreed - rent is high, but NET teachers bet paid accordingly and if you are able to live in small spaces, there are some nice places to be had for not that bad an amount of rent. However, we have bought our house, and I have to say that even that was a pleasant and easy experience and it is ALL done in English.
There are places where you can meet a lot of people and there are events where you will meet people too - one such example is the relatively new Hong Kong Pub Crawl on which I have met any number of people.
Transportation is easy and cheap.
Everything is a maximum of an hour and a half away - HK isn't any bigger.
Local food isn't anything special to me, but I know others who love it. Life gets cheap if you eat local.
Supermarkets, whilst not being overly cheap, will have nearly everything you want, and if that one doesn't, then the one over there will.
Shopping - the same as anywhere else in the world. Just more of it.
Taxis - not the cheapest but fast and everywhere and they usually don't try and make conversation with you which makes it even better.
Bottom line, HK is a great place to be. In 18 months neither me nor my wife have had any issues whatsoever. For her, a Korean, it was also a really easy move from Korea and she has found that she has a nice life here.....
I think, and I know this will cause issue, like anywhere else in the world, HK is what you make it and bend it to be in your favour. |
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ozman
Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Posts: 133
Location: HONG KONG
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:51 am Post subject: |
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yes you can live here quite cheaply regarding food and transport, but the soaring rents are becoming a huge issue here and even the gov. now is talking of taking action. Most NET postings recently have been about huge rent increases.
People are friendly/unfriendly everywhere, but if you check pnet postings on their site, most of the NETS agree that you are basically isolated in the school as you are the only foreigner. People might smile and say hello, but you can't get into a real conversation due to language barrier.
The only people I've ever heard of learning Canto are people who are of Chinese origin. I don't know any NET, and I know many, who have mastered the language sufficiently to actually be part of the community and I know a number of people who have been "learning" Chinese for years. I have enough Canto to buy things are the market, but that's not exactly communicative. And the majority of foreign workers eventually pack up and go home to their own families. It might be different for people who originally have their roots here and may have some family connections. |
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Perilla
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 792
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:34 am Post subject: |
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My opinion of HK runs quite close to RiverMystic's, so I won't bother reiterating his comments.
Yes, everything here is very convenient (that might be HK's favourite word) but that doesn't make it a jolly, friendly, happy-go-lucky place to live. Far from it. Generally speaking, levels of stress in this city are sky high; people are always in a rush; there is an obsession with money and savings; noisy, invasive infrastructure work is everywhere and continuous; air pollution is bad and getting worse; and all the while, people scurry from their aircon workplace to the aircon shopping mall to their aircon shoebox flat. OK, that's painting a pretty negative picture. Why, you might ask, am I here? HK has its plus points - the big ones IMO being work, food and personal safety. I get paid more here than I would if I returned to the UK (in fact, I'd probably be unemployed there) or just about anywhere else, and for now that justifies living here. But if I win the lottery I'm gone tomorrow.
HK is in many ways a fascinating place, but IMO you need time to enjoy it and that's a luxury most of us don't have. The weather and pollution also mitigate against going out exploring the place for about 5 or 6 months of the year. For the rich it's a different city, but even with money I'd choose fresh air somewhere else. |
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Tudor
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 339
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Bottom line, HK is a great place to be. In 18 months neither me nor my wife have had any issues whatsoever. For her, a Korean, it was also a really easy move from Korea and she has found that she has a nice life here..... |
Hi Joshua, I hope you don't mind me asking a semi-personal question?
Does your wife also work in HK? Are there opportunities in HK for well-educated but non-Chinese speaking spouses from other Asian countries? |
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RiverMystic
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 1986
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Joshua2006 wrote: |
| RiverMystic wrote: |
| Not meaning to be a downer, but sisterscream is painting a rather Pollyanna image of HK which just doesn't translate into reality for many people, both local and expat. Since the thread is entitled the pros and cons of living and teaching in HK, it needs a bit of balance. You should understand the realities and challenges of living here, otherwise you won�t be prepared for them. |
I really don't agree with this at all....but then I only have 18 months of HK to comment on.. |
I've described the reality of HK for most here with statistics to back it up. You don't agree with what? Everything? The happiness surveys, the Gini index, the average household income etc? Your "Happy Everyday", land of smiling and waving people is a misrepresentation of life in HK for the vast majority, and I am simply pointing that out. There's no problem with looking at pros and cons, but simply dismissing all references to the negative is misleading to those thinking of working here.
And I never said Hong Kong was unfriendly. I simply said that it was "not friendly". This is a fair representation of a city where people are largely indifferent to each other's existence in public spaces. Where else can you go in the world where people will sit in the aisle seat of the bus every time and make others move round them to get the window seat? This unique cultural artifact emerges from the cultural issues I am referring to: the fact that people simply have no interest in the well-being of strangers. Why do so many people make transactions with waiters, cashiers and service people without making eye contact or saying "thank you" to them - simply taking money and walking away? Same reason. The reason service people like you and I (foreigners) is because many of us develop a relationship with them via eye contact, smiling and saying hello. Most Hong Kong people do not do that to service people and treat them with indifference or contempt becasue they consider them to be of no value in the race for social advancement. Conversely, if the Director of a big company walks through the door they kowtow like Jesus Christ himself has descended from the clouds.
Hong Kong is a distinctly hierarchical, super competitive, fast-paced and often stressful city for its inhabitants. That is the reality.
People coming to the city need to know this reality so that they will know that they need to establish solid personal relationships to make up for the the harsh alienation that is the public sphere in HK.
Last edited by RiverMystic on Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sistercream
Joined: 18 Dec 2010
Posts: 497
Location: Pearl River Delta
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ozman wrote: |
The only people I've ever heard of learning Canto are people who are of Chinese origin. I don't know any NET, and I know many, who have mastered the language sufficiently to actually be part of the community and I know a number of people who have been "learning" Chinese for years. I have enough Canto to buy things are the market, but that's not exactly communicative. And the majority of foreign workers eventually pack up and go home to their own families. It might be different for people who originally have their roots here and may have some family connections. |
Once again, this seems to depend largely on what crowd you fall in with here: offhand, I can think of about 20 caucasian, moved-to-HK-as-adults friends whose Cantonese ranges from moderately to extremely fluent, albeit accented. Then there are the Filipinos, Indonesians and South Asians (OK, only a small handful of the latter came here as teachers). |
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Joshua2006
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| RiverMystic wrote: |
I've described the reality of HK for most here with statistics to back it up. You don't agree with what? Everything? The happiness surveys, the Gini index, the average household income etc? Your "Happy Everyday", land of smiling and waving people is a misrepresentation of life in HK for the vast majority, and I am simply pointing that out. There's no problem with looking at pros and cons, but simply dismissing all references to the negative is misleading to those thinking of working here. |
Well, put that like then yes, I don't agree with the 'happiness' surveys or the 'Gini Index' and as I earn well above the average household income, then that doesn't worry me either. Go into it with a positive attitude and very often life around you won't necessarily reflect the gloom and doom. You are highlighting the life of the average local person. We aren't in that bracket. We lead very different lives to the 7 million others in HK. You therefore need to maximise on that, albeit selfish. We can't change the happiness survey, but we can be happy knowing that we are making good coin and living in a internationally dynamic city. We can't change the Gini Index, but we can be happy knowing that we aren't actually among the numbers surveyed. And salary? Well, I don't need to talk about that now do I? You know what you make and I know what my household makes.....and that is nothing to be laughed at.
| Quote: |
| And I never said Hong Kong was unfriendly. I simply said that it was "not friendly". This is a fair representation of a city where people are largely indifferent to each other's existence in public spaces. Where else can you go in the world where people will sit in the aisle seat of the bus every time and make others move round them to get the window seat? This unique cultural artifact emerges from the cultural issues I am referring to: the fact that people simply have no interest in the well-being of strangers. Why do so many people make transactions with waiters, cashiers and service people without making eye contact or saying "thank you" to them - simply taking money and walking away? Same reason. The reason service people like you and I (foreigners) is because many of us develop a relationship with them via eye contact, smiling and saying hello. Most Hong Kong people do not do that to service people and treat them with indifference or contempt becasue they consider them to be of no value in the race for social advancement. Conversely, if the Director of a big company walks through the door they kowtow like Jesus Christ himself has descended from the clouds. |
If it is getting to the point where people sitting in the aisle seat bother you, then isn't it time to seriously start thinking about somewhere else? Rather than worry about how the service industry workers treat locals, focus on how they treat you. You'll find life bcomes a much happier place. Again selfish, but as long as YOU are getting good service and as long as they always give YOU a big hello when YOU walk in, does it honestly matter about how they treat the other 99% of the customers who are all locals. They are probably happy to see you because they know that you will be nice to them and you will engage in brief conversation with them. That therefore should leave you feeling good about yourself and about the environ in which we find ourselves.
| Quote: |
| Hong Kong is a distinctly hierarchical, super competitive, fast-paced and often stressful city for its inhabitants. That is the reality. |
Maybe, but does it really affect you that much? I know it bears NO relevance on my life whatsoever and nor I have experienced ANY of it at ANY time. I find it quite the opposite really - I have never experienced 7 million people living together in such a small space yet in such a harmonious way. It's reall quite a peaceful place like that.
| Quote: |
| People coming to the city need to know this reality so that they will know that they need to establish solid personal relationships to make up for the the harsh alienation that is the public sphere in HK. |
If people are making the move away from their home country, then 99% of the time those people already have a certain ability to deal with things that aren't quite the same, and it is that ambition which makes those people make the most if the situation in which they choose to put themselves.
How many surveys have been done about HK involving only foreigners? ALL of the foreigners that I have met have all been here long term with no desire to leave. Are they all unhappy too...? |
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Joshua2006
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| Tudor wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Bottom line, HK is a great place to be. In 18 months neither me nor my wife have had any issues whatsoever. For her, a Korean, it was also a really easy move from Korea and she has found that she has a nice life here..... |
Hi Joshua, I hope you don't mind me asking a semi-personal question?
Does your wife also work in HK? Are there opportunities in HK for well-educated but non-Chinese speaking spouses from other Asian countries? |
She only works part time in a niche market....I couldn't honestly pass fair comment on other peoples' situations.....sorry. However, I am sure that there must be jobs for everyone somewhere - there is something like 27,000 Koreans here which must mean there are a fair number of Korean offices, and I am sure they all hire people from somewhere - if you get what I am saying. |
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YujiKaido
Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 49
Location: ? Hong Kong ?
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| This topic is turning into a lively discussion,good posts on both sides. I would have to agree, when I first taught in Korea, I complained about teaching being a nightmare plus being unprepared through the training and the school had no curriculum. Also compared everything to Japan, because Japan was the first country outside U.S. I lived in and I guess that set the standard for me elsewhere. It was only until I stopped complaining and started to accept things for what they were, each country is different and has its own ways good or bad. After that happened I started to enjoy Korea more and then I went from being where I couldn't wait to leave to when I did leave, missing Korea and my students terribly. So I guess its all in how you look at it. Compared to some American cities here with lots of crime and hearing some stories that make me wonder if people are actually human there, East Asia has a charm and peace about it, that I admire and Hong Kong is no exception. |
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Perilla
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 792
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| YujiKaido wrote: |
| So I guess its all in how you look at it. |
Yes, basically. Some people are clearly able to turn a blind eye to what's going on around them - a selfish gene, you could say - while others are more affected.
I think it also depends somewhat on how long you've been here. I know plenty of people who were fairly enthusiastic when they arrived, but in many (perhaps most) cases this enthusiasm dwindled over the years as the novelty wore off and the negative aspects of HK began to creep in. Not all by any stretch - I know expats who have no intention of leaving; but I know far more who will leave (and intend to do so) as soon as they can. |
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kowlooner
Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 230
Location: HK, BCC (former)
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:06 am Post subject: |
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RM seems to really believe in the surveys. So, let's look at those surveys! First happiness, then the Gini Coefficient.
Happiness
Happiness stats. Have you actually looked at them? I did. Went to the World Values Survey website and looked at the breakdown. Just 4 possible answers to the question of happiness: Very Happy, Quite Happy, Not Very Happy, and Not Happy at All.
HK scored just 7% "very happy", compared to in the 30's for Japan, the US, Australia, New Zealand, over 50% in the UK, and nearly 60% in Mexico. So, HK must be a very unhappy place!
Except this: HK tops the charts in the "Quite Happy" category at 77%, compared to 60% in the US, 57% in Japan, 43% in the UK, and so on.
Could there possibly be a cultural reason why HKers would not say "very happy"? Don't know, and doesn't really matter, but we can say with confidence that despite the rankings, a look at the figures behind them suggest HKers in general are pretty happy folk.
HK also scored higher than many on the "not very happy" at 15% but lower than most at "not happy at all" with 0.5%. Maybe HKers just don't go for extremes as much as in other countries, at least when it comes to subjective feelings such as happiness.
The point is, take these statistics with a huge grain of salt. And recognize the fact that in most countries, the vast majority of people are reasonably happy ... if you believe in the stats! Be careful when quoting these rankings.
The Gini 
Now for the Gini, where lower figures = "better".
If we look just at the Gini, then there are plenty of places that are so much better than HK. Obviously one would choose Albania, Serbia, Kazakhstan as much more idealistic, fair, joyful places to live. Their Gini figures are close to those of Germany, Belgium, and Finland, all beating Denmark.
Clearly there's a problem. The numbers alone are not meaningful.
It's pretty obvious to anybody at first glance that HK is not exactly a poor place. Yes, there are poor, and there are many struggling to get by, but HK in general is not dirt poor, there's a thriving middle class, and even those at the lower end generally have enough to eat, enough to pay bills, enough to buy nice mobile phones, access to health care, etc etc. But how can this be, since the Gini says HK is unequal? Because the Gini measures household income, not wealth. By doing this, inequality can seem much higher than it actually is. For example, retirees not working contribute to a higher (more unequal) coefficient, even though they may have substantial assets.
The Gini has recognized problems so shouldn't be cited blindly. An aging population will skew the results, an open immigration policy will skew the results, higher job mobility will skew results, higher education levels will skew the results, etc. For example, economic development means more higher income jobs are being created, generally in the "knowledge" fields, which increases inequality compared to non knowledge workers.
Higher education levels skew the coefficient, as increases in the number in supervisory and professional jobs increases income disparity between high and low income jobs. Age comes into play again here too. Those at the lower skill level will see income level off and decrease as they hit middle age, while those with higher education levels will see their incomes continue to increase.
Finally, you get to different measures of income across different countries. Different countries report income in vastly different ways, with issues of tax, government subsidies in health, education, housing etc all accounted for differently. HK tends to exclude many extra benefits in their reported figures while other countries include them, meaning the comparisons are very shaky.
That's not to say there isn't income inequality. But income inequality isn't as simple as "the rich get richer while the poor get poorer." In HK, it represents a number of factors, with economic growth and an increasingly knowledge-worker based economy coupled with an aging population most likely the key drivers.
In short, the Gini may be a handy proxy, but it's reckless to cite it blindly, and it has real limitations.
Statistics are useful, but for those coming to HK and wanting to know more about it, it's better to listen to stories of those already here on the ground. We've all obviously had different experiences, some more positive and some less positive. I think Joshua and Sistercream are right, in that much depends on your attitude and the crowd you fall into. |
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Perilla
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 792
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:53 am Post subject: |
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Opinion surveys are notoriously dubious - and I'm sure RM would agree.
RM and Joshua are both right - there's no 'right' or 'wrong' in this, IMO. Hong Kong has plenty of plus points for expats (availability of work, level of pay, transport efficiency, safety, food etc.), but it also has undeniable negatives - as pointed out by RM and - in other threads and former lives - by myself.
How much the dark side of HK affects you will depend on your own approach to living here, your ability to block out or ignore certain things, how long you've lived here and what you expect to get out of the place - to name just a few variables. |
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Tudor
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 339
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the reply Justin, I realise it was a bit of a general question.
I think the OP (and other interested readers) has been given plenty of food for thought by the wide range of opinions on this thread, and, as Perilla said, no-one is right or wrong, it's all pretty much subjective.
I don't particularly enjoy life in Indonesia whereas almost everyone else I know here is happy. I doubt me moaning at them about pollution, traffic, lack of green spaces, ignorant locals etc is going to change their opinion. Likewise, them telling me how friendly everyone is and how pretty girls always smile at them ain't gonna change mine either. Having said that, I don't resent their happiness, if anything I'm quite envious of it and wish I could be happy here. I suppose we each have our own tolerance levels and ideas of what constitutes a good lifestyle be it in Indonesia, HK or anywhere and the only way to find out how suited you are to somewhere is to "suck it and see". |
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