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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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 Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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The previous post is a hell lot of insalata verde. 
The previously stated questions to the poster were; "How do you change THE STATE BUREAU OF FOREIGN EXPERTS original and fake contractual clauses?" " How do you change minds of the locals that sit on the gold?" If the poster's answers to that are to "read carfully" and/or "it's like ABC" then anyone's sarcasm is justifiable. Getting a bragging chef's insalata verde for a reply is a lot of fun for some in the office maybe, but not for FTs on mainland China.
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| So what's the problem? |
The problem is that you have been misleading FTs for quite some time on forums. You give them a false sense of security, when you are bragging about how agreements are negotiated or when you are bringing up any legal issues on mainland China. I don't think it's inappropriate to bring up your labor laws post from some other thread where you have posted the whole helpfully useless bunch of clauses a while back. Labor laws on mainland China are, and most likely will be, only written! The recent thread, where you mix up the "inconveniences" with "critical issues" of FTs on mainland China, and where you sound just like a traveller, suggest you aren't just a teacher on mainland China. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| igorG wrote: |
The previous post is a hell lot of insalata verde.
The previously stated questions to the poster were; "How do you change THE STATE BUREAU OF FOREIGN EXPERTS original and fake contractual clauses?" " How do you change minds of the locals that sit on the gold?" If the poster's answers to that are to "read carfully" and/or "it's like ABC" then anyone's sarcasm is justifiable. Getting a bragging chef's insalata verde for a reply is a lot of fun for some in the office maybe, but not for FTs on mainland China.
| Quote: |
| So what's the problem? |
The problem is that you have been misleading FTs for quite some time on forums. You give them a false sense of security, when you are bragging about how agreements are negotiated or when you are bringing up any legal issues on mainland China. I don't think it's inappropriate to bring up your labor laws post from some other thread where you have posted the whole helpfully useless bunch of clauses a while back. Labor laws on mainland China are, and most likely will be, only written! The recent thread, where you mix up the "inconveniences" with "critical issues" of FTs on mainland China, and where you sound just like a traveller, suggest you aren't just a teacher on mainland China. |
I'm afraid it's you who is misleading people on this forum with all your "the sky is falling and no FT is safe from the exploitative Chinese employer" posts.
While it's not unheard of for a foreigner to get taken advantage of when they're fresh off the boat either by unscrupulous employers or an unfair contract/appendix, common sense dictates that you learn by experience.
Most or all of us have gone through the same thing - get shafted once and learn how to avoid the pitfall(s) next time around. Read a contract, ask questions, negotiate changes to the appendix if you feel the need, and then sign or don't sign. If you've been a decent employee, or if you're someone with qualifications the school wants to hire it's not at all difficult to have positive changes made to the appendix and in turn be treated well. Once you've been through the process two or three times it really is as simple as ABC.
On the other hand if you've been a problematic employee (as some forum members seemingly are), or you have little or no qualifications, then the employer has no real incentive to give you a better deal than what's offered and why should they? You have little to offer in return.
Long-timers in China who get the shaft over and over again are either not too smart or they've burned so many bridges behind them that getting a good contract offer is all but impossible now. How to solve the problem? not much you can do about the former but for the latter, some honest self-examination regarding past job performance would be a good place to start. |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:33 am Post subject: |
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I was asked, and I told. I don't change the boilerplate SAFEA contract, I modify the appendix. I clearly stated that. I can ty to change the bosses' minds trough persuasion and rationale for changes to contracts. I stated that.
If I tell about something worked for me, I'm bragging.
If I give suggestions on how to do something, I'm misleading people.
If I quote labour law, those laws are inapplicable.
If I talk about dealing with cultural differences, I'm not really an FT.
If I suggest ways to improve chances of being satisfied with a contract, it doesn't matter about the contract because the bosses will shaft you anyway.
It's really too bad I'm happy here. It's too bad my boss treats me fairly and is a nice guy. It's too bad my students like me and I enjoy my job. It's too bad my experiences are so different. Well, too bad, but not for me. Maybe I'm just lucky. Maybe... it's something else.
RED |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:55 am Post subject: |
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I should have guessed i could be run over by a two wheel carriage with a couple of blind ponies in China.
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| I'm afraid it's you who is misleading people on this forum with all your "the sky is falling and no FT is safe from the exploitative Chinese employer" posts. |
Better to write what we should watch out for than what we shouldn't. Have i written that about the falling sky 
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| While it's not unheard of for a foreigner to get taken advantage of when they're fresh off the boat either by unscrupulous employers or an unfair contract/appendix, common sense dictates that you learn by experience. |
In fact, it's common for a foreigner to get taken advantage of either by unscrupulous employers or recruiters, that dictate the job market so well here, and the "unfair contracts/appendix" have become a standard in the country. It was so much easier without recruiters in 90s here.
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| I was asked, and I told. I don't change the boilerplate SAFEA contract, I modify the appendix. I clearly stated that. I can ty to change the bosses' minds trough persuasion and rationale for changes to contracts. I stated that. |
Oh, nice word play. Yes, my bad. I asked "change" but meant adjust or as you say "modify". I hear FTs knocking at the SAFEA doors for these modifications. But, yes, employer can modify whatsoever, if you are nice
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| If I tell about something worked for me, I'm bragging. |
Something? You were bragging.
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| If I give suggestions on how to do something, I'm misleading people. |
Suggesting what you have been suggesting about the job market on mainland China is misleading.
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| If I quote labour law, those laws are inapplicable. |
Not as inapplicable as useless. 
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| If I talk about dealing with cultural differences, I'm not really an FT. |
Oh, no. You are one, well, in a wolve's clothes.
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| If I suggest ways to improve chances of being satisfied with a contract, it doesn't matter about the contract because the bosses will shaft you anyway. |
Your "suggestions" are theories.
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| It's really too bad I'm happy here. |
Oh, now i feel sorry. Be happy. Good for you. I am happy too. I've got a couple of kids, a local wifie, and a home, although it's tough to seek opportunities in around my home. Let's be happy. Yes! |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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I have no problem letting others have the last word on this topic. I'm not here to engage in flame wars with bitter trolls.
RED |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| 7969 wrote: |
I'm afraid it's you who is misleading people on this forum with all your "the sky is falling and no FT is safe from the exploitative Chinese employer" posts. |
Wrong.
No FT is safe from exploitative Chinese employers. That's why forums such as these actually exist in the first place.
Anyone who is immune from abuse, must have a red cape with a big yellow "S" on their chest.
Why are the messages in your posts so 'against teachers' and so 'pro bosses'?
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| While it's not unheard of for a foreigner to get taken advantage of when they're fresh off the boat either by unscrupulous employers or an unfair contract/appendix, common sense dictates that you learn by experience. |
'Not unheard of'
LOL
The vast majority of us are here to make other people rich.
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| Most or all of us have gone through the same thing - get shafted once and learn how to avoid the pitfall(s) next time around. Read a contract, ask questions, negotiate changes to the appendix if you feel the need, and then sign or don't sign. If you've been a decent employee, or if you're someone with qualifications the school wants to hire it's not at all difficult to have positive changes made to the appendix and in turn be treated well. Once you've been through the process two or three times it really is as simple as ABC. |
Being able to read a contract carefully does not protect us one iota from a school not adhering to the contract. Just because a contract says something does not mean a school will follow it.
I have just helped my mate get an apartment on his own after the school kicked him out because they were so cheap that they didn't want to re-new the lease on the place. His contract says that accomodation is provided, and in fact for six months they have done just that, yet they do not provide it any longer.
He is a guy who has been in China for ELEVEN YEARS so experience means nothing. He read the contract and signed it.
The school still cheated him because they think they can get away with it.
So it would be nice if your posted messages actually tried to look out for teachers instead of going against us at every turn.
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| On the other hand if you've been a problematic employee (as some forum members seemingly are) |
Judge and jury now?
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| or you have little or no qualifications, |
Credentials screener?
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| then the employer has no real incentive to give you a better deal than what's offered and why should they? You have little to offer in return. |
If they have little to offer, then they wouldn't get hired in the first place, would they?
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| Long-timers in China who get the shaft over and over again are either not too smart or they've burned so many bridges behind them that getting a good contract offer is all but impossible now. |
Wrong.
My mate did nothing wrong; he is being abused, plain and simple.
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| How to solve the problem? |
By not taking advice by people who are doing their best to help bosses and recruiters and instead taking advice by people who want what is best for the teachers themselves.
Why do some people defend teachers and attack schools? What is the motive? Anything to gain from it? No.
Why do some people defend schools and attack teachers? What is the motive? Anything to gain from it? Yes.
Ask yourselves this very question when reading these forums.
I stand by the majority of the posters on this thread 100%.
-Posted by a long-term community volunteer with extensive experience, qualifications and references who gains nothing from posting this except to help other teachers because he would expect the same from fellow teachers.
GWoW
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| Why are the messages in your posts so 'against teachers' and so 'pro bosses'? |
my posts aren't necessarily anti-teacher, they're anti-bad teacher, and there are plenty of those. in case you missed the memo schools in china don't have the monopoly on all that's wrong in ESL. Outside of the bubble there are losers masquerading as teachers and the stories about drunk/hungover, unshaved, shoddily dressed posers showing up (or not showing up) to teach a class are very real (had one or two where I work in the past) yet somehow these people still expect a fair shake.
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| So it would be nice if your posted messages actually tried to look out for teachers instead of going against us at every turn. |
The same question could be asked of you in reverse. However just because you don't see it on a thread doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are PMs on this board that some people prefer to use to exchange info 
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
Why do some people defend teachers and attack schools? What is the motive? Anything to gain from it? No.
Why do some people defend schools and attack teachers? What is the motive? Anything to gain from it? Yes. |
I've never mentioned the name of the place I work because I don't have to. I have no stake in the school other than the fact that I work and live there and they pay my salary. I'm happy, they're happy. Posting in support of decent schools (and there are plenty) should be encouraged just as supporting LEGITIMATE complaints of teachers should be encouraged.
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
Ask yourselves this very question when reading these forums.
I stand by the majority of the posters on this thread 100%. |
that "majority" represents about 0.001% of FTs in China.
Don't confuse everything you read in this forum with reality on the ground. Tens of thousands (?) of ESL teachers in China never post on forums like this because they don't need to. In contrast it looks like 80% of the rants on this forum come from the same 2-3 members whose lives (if everything they're posting is true) resemble something like a train wreck. And I understand, it's always someone else's fault.
I have a well-deserved holiday to get on with now. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| 7969 wrote: |
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| Why are the messages in your posts so 'against teachers' and so 'pro bosses'? |
my posts aren't necessarily anti-teacher, they're anti-bad teacher, and there are plenty of those. in case you missed the memo schools in china don't have the monopoly on all that's wrong in ESL. Outside of the bubble there are losers masquerading as teachers and the stories about drunk/hungover, unshaved, shoddily dressed posers showing up (or not showing up) to teach a class are very real (had one or two where I work in the past) yet somehow these people still expect a fair shake. |
Are there really "plenty of bad teachers" around? Or, are there plenty of bad employers and recruiters around? There's a large number of such employers and recruiters that are attempting to control the market, in case you haven't noticed. Then, there's a large number of employers and recruiters that are clueless, arrogant or both. Hard to call these kinds "losers", because they have jobs. They earn their living out of lying. They'd lie to teachers, students, parents of students and if they need to keep their jobs, they'd lie to either their superiors or authorities just about anything. Yes, it's an honor not to be a "loser" in this country.
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The Great Wall of Whiner wrote:
So it would be nice if your posted messages actually tried to look out for teachers instead of going against us at every turn.
7969 replied;
The same question could be asked of you in reverse. However just because you don't see it on a thread doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are PMs on this board that some people prefer to use to exchange info
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I'd agree but we are on a forum for teachers, aren't we? We don't want any suggestions from employers or recruiters at this point, do we?
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7969;
Don't confuse everything you read in this forum with reality on the ground. Tens of thousands (?) of ESL teachers in China never post on forums like this because they don't need to. In contrast it looks like 80% of the rants on this forum come from the same 2-3 members whose lives (if everything they're posting is true) resemble something like a train wreck. And I understand, it's always someone else's fault. |
I really don't think that the real teachers, especially the ones with experiences, would confuse everything they read in this forum with reality on the ground. Many have given up posting on and that for some good reasons. You may guess what the reasons have been.
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7969:
I have a well-deserved holiday to get on with now. |
Yes, and you have let us know on some other topics too. We know you are in Canada now. Let me suggest this again to you as i have in the other thread you've started, visit New Foundland! Out of there, you may fill in one jumbo jet of your dream ESL teachers for mainland China. Just imagine all the nickels and dimes you'll make.
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Lobster;
I'm not here to engage in flame wars with bitter trolls. |
Oh, forgive me, please, if the word game you have been playing has gotten to you. Just remember that the 99% of just inconveniences of FTs, that you have mentioned elsewhere, may and do become critical issues at some point of their professional lives in the country.
On the end, we will not only have to read all sorts of unpro employment agreements and undergo all sorts of unpro interviews where evaluations are done in ways "adjusted to local standards", but we will also have to put up with some foreigners in the country that would virtually do anything to make the few dimes and nickles. Be aware! |
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