|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Timer
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Posts: 173
Location: China
|
 Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:18 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| dean_a_jones wrote: |
So you have arrived in China, entered with your school sponsored Z visa, but found what you consider a better job after arriving so want to switch? How long have you been here for?
If the above is true, I would not expect too much friendly cooperation. |
I'm guessing you are referring to my post. Interesting that you assume I am in the wrong.
What has actually happened is that I arrived in China with my school sponsored Z visa, but found that the job was not what I was led to believe and that the apartment that has been provided is appalling (in addition to some other details). I don't want to stick around to find out what else will go wrong so I am exploring my options. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Silent Shadow
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| dean_a_jones wrote: |
So you have arrived in China, entered with your school sponsored Z visa, but found what you consider a better job after arriving so want to switch? How long have you been here for?
If the above is true, I would not expect too much friendly cooperation. |
You seem to attribute bad motives to timer, simply because he wants to switch jobs after acquiring a Z visa. How do you know that he doesn't have valid reasons for jumping ship early? Maybe they have gone back on what they promised him.
I'm not saying that he does have valid reasons, but at the moment we don't know. More information would be useful, though.
There you go! I saw his post after I clicked send.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Timer wrote: |
| dean_a_jones wrote: |
So you have arrived in China, entered with your school sponsored Z visa, but found what you consider a better job after arriving so want to switch? How long have you been here for?
If the above is true, I would not expect too much friendly cooperation. |
I'm guessing you are referring to my post. Interesting that you assume I am in the wrong.
What has actually happened is that I arrived in China with my school sponsored Z visa, but found that the job was not what I was led to believe and that the apartment that has been provided is appalling (in addition to some other details). I don't want to stick around to find out what else will go wrong so I am exploring my options. |
Can you elaborate on what you found appalling about the apartment? and the other details? This is useful information if you really want useful advice. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Timer
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Posts: 173
Location: China
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 7969 wrote: |
| Can you elaborate on what you found appalling about the apartment? and the other details? This is useful information if you really want useful advice. |
The apartment is dirty, doors don't close properly and have large gaps underneath them (the entire place is poorly built), half the stuff required for living was/is missing (they bought a few things but they seem to expect me to get the rest myself), the stuff that was actually there is not adequate (dirty bedding, laughably tiny fridge, single rusty wok making up the entire "cooking utensils" etc.) and dodgy looking wiring/piping (no major problems yet but it doesn't look like it could survive a month let alone a year).
Now I'm a pretty adaptable guy. The place I was in at my previous job had temporary hot water problems in winter (which caused me to get ill), NO water for a week or so in summer and I had to pester my manager to get things fixed all the time. I managed in that place. This new place is far worse.
Apart from the apartment issue there are also things like age range and class schedules being different when I arrive, inept management and colleagues and an overall bad vibe.
I could probably deal with most of the other stuff if the apartment wasn't so crap. It's not a good first impression to give someone who is basically there to bring in more money for the school.
Anyway, now that I've got all that out of the way could we return to my original question? Not to be rude but I'm not interested in whether people think I am doing the ethical thing or not. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Silent Shadow
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Timer wrote: |
| Figured I'd bump this thread rather than starting a new one. I am also interested in changing jobs, however my contract hasn't actually started yet. I don't have a resident permit or a foreign expert certificate yet, but I do have the Z Visa and I'm currently in China. Am I going to run into similar problems with release letters and what not? |
So you've signed the contract, Timer? If so, what contract did you sign? Did you sign a faxed contract before you arrived at the school? When you signed it did it have the school's signature on it? If it's any of the above then I would say a real contract has not been signed, and you're under no obligation to them. If you signed the contract after you arrived and viewed the apartment, well... 
You've obviously signed something because you mentioned needing a release letter from this school. If I was you I would insist on an apartment that more matches your expectations. Are you the only foreign teacher there? You might have some clout if so, and may be able to get the original student ages and class schedule that were promised, too.
Be polite but firm. Reason with them. Tell them that you came to them in good faith and do not understand why they would do this to you. Tell them it's never happened to you in China before, and that this has come as a shock to you.
If they refuse, then tell them, sorry but they've given you no alternative but to leave, and then request the release letter (you won't need one, though if you haven't signed a real contract. You could then use the one given by your previous school). If they play hardball, nag them until they give it to you.
Before you threaten leaving, though, try to give yourself some options by making some applications for other jobs. If you get some other offers it will give you a bit of breathing space.
As, I said, though, if you signed a contract after you arrived, you've weakened your position a bit.
By the way, did you acquire the Z visa before you came to China? This will affect your chances of a successful outcome, too. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sorry, that was my obviously bungled way of suggesting more information would have been useful. Clearly it's not as though you have come in on their expense and hit the ground looking for an improved situation.
Having said that, I do think you might find it tough to get the school to hand you a release letter for the reasons stated. I would see if you can speak to a reasonable FT and get the full picture. If there really is not someone that fits this description, I would look to sit down ASAP with someone who can make decisions, contract in hand, and state your case. If you are not firm at this point, then things are likely to be difficult in the future. You might find that someone is willing to act once you show your annoyance and suggest that if conditions don't match the contract, you have little choice but to ask to move on.
Hopefully some others who have been in the same boat have some good ideas. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Offer to help your present school find a replacement for you. Sometimes that helps. They're less likely to give you a problem if they have someone lined up to take your job. |
I don't like this advice at all. After all, if the place is crap you really don't want to be responsible for getting another teacher into the same situation that you find unacceptable.
I'd like to ask what efforts you've made to resolve things with the school (e.g. a housing allowance and find your own place), but at this point I feel it's moot.
The real point is how you submitted your resignation. Did you just send an e-mail, or did you take two dated copies to the FAO/boss and have him sign your copy? You can imagine why I ask..."What Letter of Resignation?" Have you regularly reminded them that you'll be leaving in 6 weeks, 1 month, 2 weeks etc? What bothers me about this account is the lack of reported dialogue between the FT and FAO. I also find it strange that a mill offers accommodations.
As for some other posters here. The OP is NOT pulling a runner, legit, illegit or semi-legit. He is giving written notice! He is acting legally within the bounds of the contract. Just because someone signs a 1-year contract and gets a Z visa doesn't mean that they are obligated, legally or morally, to remain there for the duration of that contract. He has, I'll take it, made unsuccessful efforts to improve things. He has given more than adequate notice. He is not happy there. That's the only "valid reason" he needs IMO. Chinese labour law clearly states that an employee is free to leave a work unit with proper notice. An employer may not coerce the employee to stay.
Back to the gist of Wandaning's question. In Jiangsu you may have trouble getting a new FEC on two grounds. You need the release form and they may not accept your qualifications. Your RP isn't going to help in this regard. What may help is a copy of your current Sichuan FEC. No guarantees. Your new employer should help you sort this out.
RED |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Silent Shadow
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Lobster wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Offer to help your present school find a replacement for you. Sometimes that helps. They're less likely to give you a problem if they have someone lined up to take your job. |
I don't like this advice at all. After all, if the place is crap you really don't want to be responsible for getting another teacher into the same situation that you find unacceptable.
I'd like to ask what efforts you've made to resolve things with the school (e.g. a housing allowance and find your own place), but at this point I feel it's moot.
The real point is how you submitted your resignation. Did you just send an e-mail, or did you take two dated copies to the FAO/boss and have him sign your copy? You can imagine why I ask..."What Letter of Resignation?" Have you regularly reminded them that you'll be leaving in 6 weeks, 1 month, 2 weeks etc? What bothers me about this account is the lack of reported dialogue between the FT and FAO. I also find it strange that a mill offers accommodations.
As for some other posters here. The OP is NOT pulling a runner, legit, illegit or semi-legit. He is giving written notice! He is acting legally within the bounds of the contract. Just because someone signs a 1-year contract and gets a Z visa doesn't mean that they are obligated, legally or morally, to remain there for the duration of that contract. He has, I'll take it, made unsuccessful efforts to improve things. He has given more than adequate notice. He is not happy there. That's the only "valid reason" he needs IMO. Chinese labour law clearly states that an employee is free to leave a work unit with proper notice. An employer may not coerce the employee to stay.
Back to the gist of Wandaning's question. In Jiangsu you may have trouble getting a new FEC on two grounds. You need the release form and they may not accept your qualifications. Your RP isn't going to help in this regard. What may help is a copy of your current Sichuan FEC. No guarantees. Your new employer should help you sort this out.
RED |
Sorry, Lobster. There seems to be a bit of confusion. Dean and I are answering Timer's more recent post. His circumstances are different to that of the OP. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The advice offered by dakelei was also not in response the the poster who wants to leave because of bad conditions. dakelei was replying to another poster who wanted to know about leaving a job mid way thru the contract and his suggestion to help the school find a replacement was actually a good one for those circumstances. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Contracts have clauses in terms of suitable living conditions, on job support etc. As Lobster is suggesting, a fair one month notice (Letter of Resignation) with reasons that is signed by the authority should do it. However, quitting even if on a professional notice with valid reasons may not get you a Recommendation Letter, which you may need for the next job and work permit. Perhaps the Release Letter, which you should get too, may help.
To my knowledge, there are many FTs with such issues as the poster in case is having. We do need to do our homework much more completely than before and that especially for the tighter system that, in fact, discriminates against the job quitters. Perhaps pics of our prospective accomodation may reduce such issues as the poster in case has demonstrated and perhaps a chat with one or two administration workers that will closely work with the job applicant may also be eye openers prior to our arrival on the job. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yea, sorry I got that muddled up. Take from it what you can.
I still have to say that I will never again be the one who refers FTs to employers or vice-versa. I've made that mistake 3 times already (slow learner). All three attempts to link up people I thought would work well together came to an ugly end. Now, when my company asks my opinion on a prospective hire, I just refer to the strong and weak points of their CV. Once on the job, I can offer an assessment of their teaching abilities. But as for doing their recruiting or getting a job for a friend, forget that!
RED |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I too won't recommend people for a job (haven't had to in China so far) and I won't get jobs for friends. I learned that lesson in high school. I will give and have given people the email address of the FAO at our school, but that's it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What's up with the two posts above? Are they suggesting we shouldn't help recruiting for our schools so much  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GuestBob
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
Posts: 270
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| igorG wrote: |
| What's up with the two posts above? Are they suggesting we shouldn't help recruiting for our schools so much |
You recommend someone, then you are responsible for them. Are you being purposefully obtuse?
There is a world of difference between sitting on a hiring panel and saying "oh yeah, I know this guy, he's good". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I recruit for my school, but am well supported by both the office team and other teachers. I am not afraid to recommend my school or take a punt after doing an interview. Some work, some don't, but I am not letting down 'friends' nor am I part of a system that abuses those who sign up. I am honest about the good and the bad, and gain respect as a result.
It works for where I am, and I am appreciated on both sides for it. I prefer to help hire those who will be working with the system we have in place. I can be frank with the teachers about what to expect and honest with the staff about the potential teachers (in regards to level and support needed). I have also helped in recruitment of Chinese English teachers, but I don't feel my input has really been considered; rather I think that is about me being part of a team.
Anyway, that is my experience in recruiting in China, for better or worse. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
