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LettersAthruZ
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 466
Location: North Viet Nam
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 Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
Got a serious question for you LettersAthruZ because I'm a little curious as to why you would write this. When has any poster with supposedly "rose-coloured glasses" ever said that dual pricing never goes on here and that visas renewals are never problematic?
It's just that I have been reading this forum for many years now and I don't recall ever seeing it. Anyway if you could please supply a few quotes to back up your claim that would be great. Thanks mate. |
Naw, Sarge.....sorry! There's one Bozo on here who is constantly giving me - - - - about constant negativity and such....and they just tend to wax poetic/spew on and on about how THEY'VE never had such issues blah blah blah and that those who HAVE had XXXXX-thing happen to them must be the one with the problem, not The Vietnamese and everything in this nation is just peachy  .....
Naw, Sarge - YOU are fairly rational and balanced.....sorry about any confusion! But I ain't gonna name names as to who the Kool-Aid drinker is....
Sorry....I prolly shouldn't be so jaded....prolly my fault for first hitting NORTH Vietnam BEFORE even thinking about first even checking out (and eventually relocating to) The South and then never getting around to actually MOVING DOWN THERE (where, personally, I feel it is a LOT more pleasant and a LOT of the B.S. I deal with up here on an almost-daily basis isn't as amplified in The South as it is up here) |
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snollygoster
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:46 pm Post subject: Bendy Toy |
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Is Vietnam a flexible place to work?
Just call me Mr Bendy toy-your flexible friend.
Yes Vietnam is VERY flexible, and to enjoy it, you must be too. |
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deessell2
Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 132
Location: Under the sun
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, prices are flexible. Contracts can be flexible. Visas are flexible. In fact, most things are flexible, just not in YOUR favour. |
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DNK
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 236
Location: the South
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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Complaints over visas/contracts:
I'm really not sure on this one. How many countries will let you (non-Commonwealth types) stay fairly indefinitely over multiple years by stringing along tourist visas when you are a "registered" worker in the country? In how many can you even get a job without a proper visa? Is no visa/job really better than a "flexible against your favor" visa/job?
And prices... $3 full meals instead of $2.50 full meals... country's a rip-off, I tell you! |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| DNK wrote: |
Complaints over visas/contracts:
I'm really not sure on this one. How many countries will let you (non-Commonwealth types) stay fairly indefinitely over multiple years by stringing along tourist visas when you are a "registered" worker in the country? In how many can you even get a job without a proper visa? Is no visa/job really better than a "flexible against your favor" visa/job? |
Hear, hear! Personally I've never had a problem with visas here, but I fulfill all the requirements to teach in Vietnam and I have only really worked for one reputable school. Also I should add that I do feel a bit bad when I hear stories about 'freelancers', who have the experience and qualifications, yet still encounter difficulties with visas.
However, for those Westerners who don't fulfill the requirements to teach here legally (e.g. no degree etc), well than, that's just too bad. Also if an employer is unable, or unwilling, to guarantee legal work than that's something that should be seriously weighed up before taking the job in the first place. If certain Westerners here think it's tough to get a visa to work in Vietnam than they should perhaps think for a moment about the God-knows-how-many hoops a Vietnamese person would be expected to jump through in order to get a visa to live and work in their country. |
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LettersAthruZ
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 466
Location: North Viet Nam
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| DNK wrote: |
Complaints over visas/contracts:
I'm really not sure on this one. How many countries will let you (non-Commonwealth types) stay fairly indefinitely over multiple years by stringing along tourist visas when you are a "registered" worker in the country? In how many can you even get a job without a proper visa? |
In how many [countries] can you even GET a job without a proper visa??
Judging about what a LOT of my Yankee friends tell me (and a few German friends as well) in terms of Tay countries, it is fairly commonplace for people without proper employment papers to secure employ in those places, actually....and leads to the Far Right calling for "Immigration Reform" and such.....
...so, it's not like Viet Nam is doing the non-Work Permit/non-Residence Permit Tays this huge favour or anything, really..... |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| LettersAthruZ wrote: |
Judging about what a LOT of my Yankee friends tell me (and a few German friends as well) in terms of Tay countries, it is fairly commonplace for people without proper employment papers to secure employ in those places, actually....and leads to the Far Right calling for "Immigration Reform" and such.....
...so, it's not like Viet Nam is doing the non-Work Permit/non-Residence Permit Tays this huge favour or anything, really..... |
Of course there are people working illegally in "Tay countries" and, (as in Vietnam), if the illegal worker is caught they run the risk of sanctions (including deportation).
One big difference though is that the illegal worker in the "Tay country" is invariably doing [although, of course, there are exceptions] the poorly-paid, unpleasant jobs that the vast majority of citizens of said country wouldn't touch with a giant barge-pole!
LettersAthurz, if you wish to equate an illegal Western TEFLer in Vietnam with, for example, an illegal Mexican farm laborer in the States, well, I guess that's up to you. Personally, I wouldn't.
The illegal TEFLer has chosen to leave their democratic, prosperous first-world nation to come to Vietnam. Incidentally, despite being illegal and only working part-time, the Western TEFLer will usually still have the opportunity to earn around twenty times the average income of a Vietnamese citizen who is working full-time. To my mind, not exactly the same thing as the farm worker whose only hope for a better life is to leave their third-world, basket-case of a country and pick fruit in the blazing sun for a few bucks an hour.
Like I said before, I do feel bad for the 'freelancers', who are providing a valuable service and are qualified. The laws should be changed in order to accommodate them much better and I really mean that!
However, my sympathy doesn't really extend to the illegal teachers who are unqualified. If you are unqualified and still want to teach here, either do it or don't do it. Doesn't matter to me much either way. However, if you do choose to do it, kindly spare me your whining about the inconvenience and expense of having to do monotonous visa runs or any other hassles associated with your illegal status. |
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Jbhughes
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 254
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
However, my sympathy doesn't really extend to the illegal teachers who are unqualified. If you are unqualified and still want to teach here, either do it or don't do it. Doesn't matter to me much either way. However, if you do choose to do it, kindly spare me your whining about the inconvenience and expense of having to do monotonous visa runs or any other hassles associated with your illegal status. |
I won't enter the debate regarding the other topics in this thread, but I would like to pick up on this point.
Do you mean non-degree holders or non-TEFL qualification holders with this 1st Sgt Welsh?
(Can we assume for the point that TEFL qualifications are a requirement, as they at least have been a requirement for some who have got their work permits, if not everyone who gets them.)
Have a good weekend everyone  |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Jbhughes wrote: |
I won't enter the debate regarding the other topics in this thread, but I would like to pick up on this point.
Do you mean non-degree holders or non-TEFL qualification holders with this 1st Sgt Welsh?
(Can we assume for the point that TEFL qualifications are a requirement, as they at least have been a requirement for some who have got their work permits, if not everyone who gets them.) |
Hi Jbhughes,
Back when I was getting my work permit I had to provide documentation to prove that I had a TEFL certificate (in my case a CELTA), a degree, a clean police record and that I was in good health. That's what I was asked for and, to be honest, I think these are reasonable requirements and, personally, I've got no problem with these standards.
Having said that, I'm not one of the 'old hands' here so I can't really comment as to how much the rules may have changed over the years. My own feelings on this is that if a teacher has been legally working in Vietnam prior to the rules changing (for example, they didn't/don't have a degree or TEFL certificate, but at the time when they started working that was perfectly legal) than there should be provision for them to continue their eligiblity for a work permit for as long as they continue to reside in Vietnam. Also if someone has substantial documented TEFL experience (i.e. several years) than there should be allowances made for that too.
But, to be a 'qualified' newbie to Vietnam I think someone should be able to provide the same documentation I did; not because I had to do it, but, like I said, because I think its reasonable. |
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Jbhughes
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 254
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hi 1st Sgt Welsh,
Thanks for your reply.
I can't particularly comment as an old hand here either.
I agree with teachers having to have certification, unless they are heavily experienced in the field (and somehow have managed to maintain relevant experience without getting qualifications).
The clean police record is fair too - often we're dealing with children and I can't imagine parents wanting criminals teaching their children (as to what makes a criminal and what offences should be able to bracket a person in such a way, that's another debate).
I'm sure you can see where I'm going next - but I just don't see any necessity for a degree, unless working in a university, or conducting IELTS/TOEFL classes (not that I know a lot about either of these lines of work, quite frankly.) When I think about my university experience, I just don't see any relevance to my work situation now. Sure, if I want to do some research into TEFL then I'll be better equipped to do it, but it hardly makes too much difference. If I wanted to teach academic writing, then yes, point taken (hence the IELFTS/TOEFL caveat above.)
Every day spend on my CELTA course was worth 6 months of university time.
I suppose I understand why it's in there with the work permit regulations though. The gvmnts apparent view on employing foreign labour is that we all should be experts in our fields. As a blanket rule from that respect, it kind of makes sense. Anyway, it's their country and if they think a degree is the minimum then up to them - I don't agree though.
Do you use your university experience in your job? (this question is not fully rhetoric in nature - I'm interested.) |
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ajc19810
Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:39 am Post subject: |
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Is Vietnam a flexible place to work. Oh yes, still is and probably will be for a long time.
However, I dont jump on board that we earn too much. I also think we have the right to be here. Many of us have all our documents and have had our documents for a long time, even when we were living on 6 month renewals. Back then I was ready and willing to get a WP but who could trust that system. And now..? The system is still just as dodgy but just not in our favor as it once was.
I personally love the old dodgey vietnam, but I am happy and able to adapt to a more structured system, but what they have created now is a long way from being structured. I get less bang for my buck now and for what more stress.
Dual prices do exist, in Danang there are hotels on the beach that have a price board one for foreigners and one for vietnamese. In Phan Thiet in the local hospital I am required to pay 8 x the amount. There is a board stating this in the hospital on the counter. I was running back from the gym this morning and I stopped for a coffee when I asked for the bill the man said 7000vdn while his mother was yelling 'charge him 10000vnd' because i am an 'American'.
This adds up I dont care how little it is. We are employed as specialists, entertainers whatever u want to call us, but like any country we should get paid accordingly and employment conditions should be clear cut. If you cant provide that then roll back to 6 month renewals, short term contracts and stop taking the piss. |
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haller_79
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| Jbhughes wrote: |
I'm sure you can see where I'm going next - but I just don't see any necessity for a degree, unless working in a university, or conducting IELTS/TOEFL classes (not that I know a lot about either of these lines of work, quite frankly.) When I think about my university experience, I just don't see any relevance to my work situation now. Sure, if I want to do some research into TEFL then I'll be better equipped to do it, but it hardly makes too much difference. If I wanted to teach academic writing, then yes, point taken (hence the IELFTS/TOEFL caveat above.)
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This is just standard practice in ESL. Most 'English teachers' in Asia have totally unrelated degrees under their belts. Personally I never quite understood why I had to wear a tie when I was singing nursery rhymes to restless children on a Saturday morning, and what's more how come they put juice in plastic bags, and how come little kids don't wear helmets, and why is grass green..... |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| ajc19810 wrote: |
However, I dont jump on board that we earn too much. |
Although I can understand why people who read this forum might think otherwise, nor do I. Around $20 (and up) an hour for a university graduate with a TEFL certificate is in no way exorbitant. Would I be here if all I could earn was $10 an hour - no way!
| Jbhughes wrote: |
I'm sure you can see where I'm going next - but I just don't see any necessity for a degree, unless working in a university, or conducting IELTS/TOEFL classes (not that I know a lot about either of these lines of work, quite frankly.) When I think about my university experience, I just don't see any relevance to my work situation now. Sure, if I want to do some research into TEFL then I'll be better equipped to do it, but it hardly makes too much difference. If I wanted to teach academic writing, then yes, point taken (hence the IELFTS/TOEFL caveat above.)
Every day spend on my CELTA course was worth 6 months of university time.
I suppose I understand why it's in there with the work permit regulations though. The gvmnts apparent view on employing foreign labour is that we all should be experts in our fields. As a blanket rule from that respect, it kind of makes sense. Anyway, it's their country and if they think a degree is the minimum then up to them - I don't agree though.
Do you use your university experience in your job? (this question is not fully rhetoric in nature - I'm interested.) |
In regards to the degree, I guess it might be best just to agree to disagree. I do teach IELTS preparation so my university training has come in handy to an extent. Also many of my students want to study in Australia so I do get asked quite regularly about Australian universities, life as a university student etc.
Would someone who hasn't graduated university (and just has a TEFL certificate) have the capacity to do the job? Sure, but, in my view, that's kind of missing the point.
A student who does not learn how to communicate effectively is going to have a very difficult time at uni. Being able to communicate and explain concepts, which I improved upon during my university study, is a big part of my job.
Also a university graduate, regardless of their subject area, has demonstrated a commitment to education. If you are a teacher than that means you are an educator. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that people who have a responsibility to educate others to be comparatively well-educated themselves. This is perhaps especially true here. Culturally, the Vietnamese value education very highly and one of the worst things you can call a Vietnamese person is 'uneducated'. However, in practice, one could argue that the high regard placed on education doesn't translate into action and, for example, the standard of scholarship at Vietnamese universities is extremely poor. But that's a topic for another time. Also I should say that I am in no way disparaging of people who are 'self-educated'. However, for visa regulations, how would you differentiate who is 'self-educated' and who isn't?
I also think the degree requirement does a lot to 'sort the sheep from the goats'. Like you said Jbhughes, it's up to the state to decide what standards they require and Vietnam is certainly not alone in demanding degrees. They could remove the degree requirement tomorrow and a lot of people, who are now ineligible to work in Vietnam, would be eligible. Naturally that would mean more competition for positions and working conditions subsequently would fall.
Anyway, others may disagree about the value of the degree requirement and I get where they are coming from. The above is just my two cents. |
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LettersAthruZ
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 466
Location: North Viet Nam
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| LettersAthurz, if you wish to equate an illegal Western TEFLer in Vietnam with, for example, an illegal Mexican farm laborer in the States, well, I guess that's up to you. Personally, I wouldn't. |
Hey, I just answered the question - "In how many [countries] can you even GET a job without a proper visa??" I wasn't "equating" anything....
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| The illegal TEFLer has chosen to leave their democratic, prosperous first-world nation to come to Vietnam. |
Well, whilst the NATION the illegal Tay ESL teacher originated from might indeed be prosperous, as you stated, but you're further implying that the Tay instructor him or herself is ALSO prosperous......I've seen a lot of people posting on this forum that generally wouldn't be here if it weren't for the Economic Depression that is presently ravaging many Tay lands.
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| ....despite being illegal and only working part-time, the Western TEFLer will usually still have the opportunity to earn around twenty times the average income of a Vietnamese citizen who is working full-time. To my mind, not exactly the same thing as the farm worker whose only hope for a better life is to leave their third-world, basket-case of a country and pick fruit in the blazing sun for a few bucks an hour. |
Well, from what people in HCMC have been telling me, over-saturation of brand new incoming (BOTH: Qualified and unqualified) Tay ESL instructors in Greater Sai Gon is driving both, that 20:1 ratio that you purport as well as teaching salaries down.
But I guess the opportunities to make a lot more money are indeed in The South....closest major cities to me here are Ha Noi (results of an informal poll I have taken of Viet friends of mine there told me that average VIET LOCAL monthly earnings = 7 Million VND) and Hai Phong (average VIET LOCAL monthly earnings = 4 Million VND)....
Sorry, Sarge - I don't know ANY ESL teacher in Ha Noi earning ANYWHERE EVEN CLOSE TO 140 Million VND and thee most for a thirty-six hour week (regular school, plus private gigs on the side) that anybody in Hai Phong that I have heard of makes is 45 Million....and, at 36 CLASSROOM hours per week, it's hardly "part-time".
Right - and if some people who feel that picking fruit in the hot sun for a few bucks an hour is not proportionate to what the locals in America receive in salaries and wages, then, perhaps, they should reconsider their choice of destination.....
....on the other hand, unqualified teachers, whether legal with Work/Residence permits, or illegal, are indeed a scourge (one former member commented on people doing just that - coming over here with no degree or certificate or EXPERIENCE and just either playing the role of economic refugee or backpacker) that hurts the parents paying for their children to learn Tieng Anh or the working adult trying to improve their station in life by learning English! No, I have no sympathy for these sorts either..... |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| LettersAthruZ wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| LettersAthurz, if you wish to equate an illegal Western TEFLer in Vietnam with, for example, an illegal Mexican farm laborer in the States, well, I guess that's up to you. Personally, I wouldn't. |
Hey, I just answered the question - "In how many [countries] can you even GET a job without a proper visa??" I wasn't "equating" anything.... |
OK, that's fair enough. I guess we can agree that comparing the illegal Western TEFLer in Vietnam and the typical illegal worker in the "Tay country" is a false analogy.
| LettersAthruZ wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| The illegal TEFLer has chosen to leave their democratic, prosperous first-world nation to come to Vietnam. |
Well, whilst the NATION the illegal Tay ESL teacher originated from might indeed be prosperous, as you stated, but you're further implying that the Tay instructor him or herself is ALSO prosperous......I've seen a lot of people posting on this forum that generally wouldn't be here if it weren't for the Economic Depression that is presently ravaging many Tay lands.
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Hey, I was just making a factual statement, I wasn't "implying" anything ..... 
I agree that the severe economic downturn in the West has resulted in more potential teachers coming to Vietnam and, I'll say it again, there is a reason for that! Just goes to show that Vietnam offers a good deal and is "competitive" as a TEFL destination.
| LettersAthruZ wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| ....despite being illegal and only working part-time, the Western TEFLer will usually still have the opportunity to earn around twenty times the average income of a Vietnamese citizen who is working full-time. To my mind, not exactly the same thing as the farm worker whose only hope for a better life is to leave their third-world, basket-case of a country and pick fruit in the blazing sun for a few bucks an hour. |
Well, from what people in HCMC have been telling me, over-saturation of brand new incoming (BOTH: Qualified and unqualified) Tay ESL instructors in Greater Sai Gon is driving both, that 20:1 ratio that you purport as well as teaching salaries down.
But I guess the opportunities to make a lot more money are indeed in The South....closest major cities to me here are Ha Noi (results of an informal poll I have taken of Viet friends of mine there told me that average VIET LOCAL monthly earnings = 7 Million VND) and Hai Phong (average VIET LOCAL monthly earnings = 4 Million VND)....
Sorry, Sarge - I don't know ANY ESL teacher in Ha Noi earning ANYWHERE EVEN CLOSE TO 140 Million VND and thee most for a thirty-six hour week (regular school, plus private gigs on the side) that anybody in Hai Phong that I have heard of makes is 45 Million....and, at 36 CLASSROOM hours per week, it's hardly "part-time". |
Firstly, "36 classroom hours per week"?!  You are right and that schedule is definitely not part-time! Also to anyone who is working those insane hours than I wish them all the best.
Secondly, who said anything about "greater Saigon", "Ha Noi" or "Hai Phong"? Certainly wasn't me. As stated, I was talking about "the average income of a Vietnamese citizen" which is slightly over a thousand dollars a year. I know this because I looked it up a while ago after I made an embarrassing and factually incorrect statement on another thread  .
If you wish to change the equation to take into account "the average income of a Vietnamese citizen in Ha Noi", or "Hai Phong" or "greater Saigon" instead, by all means, feel free. I stand by my statement as it was written. I have known unqualified people who have been teaching illegally (both privates and class work) and earn anywhere from $17 an hour to over $30. A part-time, unqualified teacher definitely has the potential to earn over twenty times the national average and that's just the way it is.
| LettersAthruZ wrote: |
Right - and if some people who feel that picking fruit in the hot sun for a few bucks an hour is not proportionate to what the locals in America receive in salaries and wages, then, perhaps, they should reconsider their choice of destination..... |
Say what? I am not sure if I'm reading the above sentence correctly and sincere apologies if I'm not. Are you suggesting that because Vietnamese farmers earn poor wages and because I acknowledge that illegal Mexican farm workers in America also earn poor wages that I should "reconsider" my "choice of destination"? If I am correct in understanding the context, than I'm sorry but I don't really follow your logic.
Throughout many countries around the world, TEFLers are working long hours for crummy wages and a substandard lifestyle. Thankfully, Vietnam is not one of those countries and that's why I'm here! As I have stated on this board many times before, I believe the lifestyle of a Western TEFLer in Vietnam is a very good one, but I have never, ever stated that we should feel guilty or ashamed because of this. God knows, I don't!
| LettersAthruZ wrote: |
....on the other hand, unqualified teachers, whether legal with Work/Residence permits, or illegal, are indeed a scourge (one former member commented on people doing just that - coming over here with no degree or certificate or EXPERIENCE and just either playing the role of economic refugee or backpacker) that hurts the parents paying for their children to learn Tieng Anh or the working adult trying to improve their station in life by learning English! No, I have no sympathy for these sorts either..... |
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