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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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 Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| Another reason for the poor-paying jobs, perhaps, is an influx of non-native speakers with abysmal English skills who try to pass themselves off as English teachers. |
Look, I don't blame those teachers, I blame the schools who hire them because they are too cheap to get a native speaker.
That said, I'll put my money where my mouth is, now that I am no longer working:
I was making around 13,000* a month. I also made an extra 5,000 or so doing extra things for people, given hongbao's which are a rare thing for foreigners to receive.
I have a Chinese wife and two daughters and anyone can decry me all they want but I personally choose to work hard because of responsibility to provide for my family. I didn't come here to womanize, sit on the beach or layabout the bars chasing skirts.
I intentionally learned Chinese and speak Chinese near fluently. I also learned how Chinese do business here and practice my business the same way Chinese do. When in Rome....
My school recently said I was getting too expensive and they have hired another foreigner who will be making less than me. For him, it will be an increase in wages and I don't begrudge him one bit for taking my job as he is a nice chap.
As it stands now, my wife and I can go home and earn double this amount and invest in a home and pay towards our pension, live with a better climate, safer water and food, and actually have proper days off of work. My children can go to school for free and not be told all sorts of lies like "America started the Korean war" or "All of Siberia belongs to China and Russia stole it from China" or "Mao single-handedly defeated the Japanese in WWII".
This is what we are most likely going to do, unless I am offered a nice position which looks unlikely because every time I apply for a job they end up hiring someone else who is willing to work for less.
*Before certain persons start quoting my past posts, this is an estimate based on an hourly salary |
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jibbs
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 452
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Interesting thread. No one can really argue at least two main points. Many salaries in China are a joke, and cost of living has increased. I've seen a few things I like to buy go up by 10% or more recently. What 100 yuan could buy a year or two ago might cost 120 yuan today. I don't know how people are doing it, and some apparently happily enough, on 5 or 6 grand a month. It's enough to live on and even save a little, but it seems like an insult to me. Being frugal (always a good idea of course) for a year and not having much to show for it, sounds like a drag. Indeed it is. |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| My school recently said I was getting too expensive and they have hired another foreigner who will be making less than me. |
Uh-oh, my school recently had a similar conversation with me. We "agreed" to a salary cap of 15,000 (plus all the other standard things like free apartment, airfare, etc.) but I am socking away money these days like crazy just in case I'm forced into an early retirement!  I mean, in China, 15,000 net is a pretty tidy sum, so I can't complain too much when that day rolls around (still at least a couple years away), but they may end up deciding I'm too expensive for them BEFORE I reach that amount! |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| A salary range (upper and lower) is normal for most occupations in any business structure. Once an employee reaches the upper echelon that's it. One exception might be pro sports where the sky (or the depth of the owner's pockets) is the limit. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:54 am Post subject: |
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I actually have the pay scale from my employer and know where the boundary is. So Igor, when I said no to you taking my job, what I meant is you can't take my job. I am rewarded for gaining more experience and being qualified. So, if all things were equal you would get paid the same as me. If you had less qualification/experience (only way to be cheaper) they would maybe hire you if there was an opening, but not to replace me.
I think the problem here is some are trying to tell others what they ought to do. It is good advice for newbies coming in who want to make money to push for a higher salary. To say everyone should do it is another matter. As mentioned, some are not here for the money. That is their choice. To blame them for your situation is odd. Again to my analogy to doctors. Do doctors blame other doctors who work in free/low cost clinics for their low salaries? Maybe, but I have never heard it (I know a few doctors who don't, but maybe I am wrong).
I have no problem with someone earning 4000 rmb a month. Might feel a little bad for them if they have nothing else coming in and need more money. You reap what you sow, and if you signed a crappy contract that is your business.
Lots of opportunities are out there to make more money. If making money is your goal follow those opportunities.
So the advice is only for those trying to make the most money possible, which, as has been pointed out, is not everybody. |
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GuestBob
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:21 am Post subject: |
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To Kev and Whiner - I would be grateful if you could give a ballpark for how much experience you have and a note of any unusual qualifications that you hold so that I can understand your earnings in context.
Also, if you don't mind, could you talk a little about the steps you have taken to get where you are. Was there a "tipping point" in terms of experience (5 years perhaps) after which you found top paying jobs easier to come by? Were these positions (or similar positions in the past) "off the shelf" or did you engineer them yourselves? |
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MisterButtkins
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 1221
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| TBH I'm still confused as to how a single person with a free apartment can spend 5k a month unless they are (A) in Shanghai or Beijing or (B) heavily in debt. I currently spend 2-3k a month and put the rest in the bank. The 2-3 k a month I spend is enough for me to eat well, go on a few trips, go barhopping occasionally, etc. Where is the money going? |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| MisterButtkins wrote: |
| TBH I'm still confused as to how a single person with a free apartment can spend 5k a month unless they are (A) in Shanghai or Beijing or (B) heavily in debt. I currently spend 2-3k a month and put the rest in the bank. The 2-3 k a month I spend is enough for me to eat well, go on a few trips, go barhopping occasionally, etc. Where is the money going? |
I tend to spend around 1,500 to 2,000RMB a month, but I don't get the impression that many others around me do. I don't live particularly frugally, but I also shop very little, beyond food, drink and books, and I prefer to socialise in smaller restaurants or at home.
What I do find is that people tend to spend a lot in small ways. Taking taxis all the time, for visiting sites, shopping, going out in the evening etc. Having western treats, either like McD etc. for lunch frequently, or buying overpriced stuff in Metro (30RMB for a can of soup--no thanks). Drinking plays a big part in large expenses, especially if you are dropping 30 - 40 RMB on bottles of guiness, duvel, leffe etc. when you are out. Eating out can also be pretty expensive here, especially if you prefer places that at least seem to be cleaned to a western standard of hygine (just don't look in the kitchen). Dropping 40RMB a night for dinner adds up over a month.
I think that is pretty much how people spend a lot of money, coupled with the occasional big purchases like electronics, or constant shopping for things like clothing (of a decent quality).
I do find it easier to save here than in London, but then again I was working in the not-for-profit sector back home, apparently quite literally. |
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GuestBob
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| dean_a_jones wrote: |
I tend to spend around 1,500 to 2,000RMB a month, but I don't get the impression that many others around me do. I don't live particularly frugally, but I also shop very little, beyond food, drink and books, and I prefer to socialise in smaller restaurants or at home.
[...]
I do find it easier to save here than in London, but then again I was working in the not-for-profit sector back home, apparently quite literally. |
Can I second this post in every way.
Take the bus, not the taxi. Drink local not imported. Eat at Mom&Pop joints (which tend to be tastier anyway) and splurge infrequently.
I find saving money in China to be much easier than back home. I don't even need to pay attention to it, it just happens. |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:54 am Post subject: |
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saving money, even in kunming with some of the lowest salaries,
isn't difficult....
working at a university:
apartment paid.
utilities paid.
internet paid.
maid service paid.
health insurance (PICC) paid.
so what must you spend that 3000-6000 paycheck on every month?
that's 100-200 rmb/day for food, clothing, cellphone, travel, parties.
no problem, unless supporting a family. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:10 am Post subject: |
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What a lively thread, although it appears quite a bit off topic. Let me follow the lead some have taken and address a few points they have made on this page;
| Quote: |
one wrote:
TBH I'm still confused as to how a single person with a free apartment can spend 5k a month unless they are (A) in Shanghai or Beijing or (B) heavily in debt.I currently spend 2-3k a month and put the rest in the bank. The 2-3 k a month I spend is enough for me to eat well, go on a few trips, go barhopping occasionally, etc.Where is the money going? |
| Quote: |
another one followed:
I tend to spend around 1,500 to 2,000RMB a month, but I don't get the impression that many others around me do. I don't live particularly frugally, but I also shop very little, beyond food, drink and books, and I prefer to socialise in smaller restaurants or at home. |
In Guangzhou, an average restaurant meal may cost a single person about 50 quai at least. Not eating out means shopping for food and cooking at home. That 50 quai one will most certainly spend, when single person grocery shopping. However, this really applies to a local more likely as many of us aren't up for daily rice parties, bones sucking and/or biting, and boiled water drinking. Then, campus food isn't always that great too, is it? A well sized sesoned beef steak in a local supermarket is at 30 quai. I buy 12 quai bread/baguette 4 times a week, which costs me over 200 quai monthly. One litter box of local milk is at about 14 quai and i buy about 4 of those weekly too. That's, with the bread all together at about 500 quai monthly. Bottled water costs me another about 500 quai monthly, but i have two kids. Perhaps, it's half that for a reasonable single person that does not want to drink some local crap. What brings your monthly costs up are the other milk products such as butter, cheese and yoghurt. A small President's Choice butter in a local Jusco supermarket is at 20 quai and a 200 grams gouda cheese at 40 quai. By myself, i eat butter (cook with butter) and cheese for about 200 quai per month. By the way, you may buy an instant Nestle Coffee bottle, that lasts for about a week, for 50 quai...another morethan 200 quai a month. Going out clubbing in Guangzhou, means one may have to take a subway, taxi or bus. A short one-way taxi ride is at 10 quai, one-way subway at about 4-5 quai. A local beer in an average club is at about 25-30 quai, foreign brands at about 40. READING THE QUOTES ABOVE MAKES ME WONDER WHETHER I AM MISSING SOMETHING. PERHAPS I CAN'T ADD UP THE NUMBERS.
On topic of salaries;
| Quote: |
someone wrote:
I think the problem here is some are trying to tell others what they ought to do. |
Telling someone what to do is one thing, suggesting is another, isn't it?
| Quote: |
The same one followed;
I have no problem with someone earning 4000 rmb a month. Might feel a little bad for them if they have nothing else coming in and need more money. You reap what you sow, and if you signed a crappy contract that is your business.
Lots of opportunities are out there to make more money. If making money is your goal follow those opportunities.
So the advice is only for those trying to make the most money possible, which, as has been pointed out, is not everybody. |
I relate to your feelings of "no problem", however, FTs should know similar gigs may offer much more and that if taking such low salary offers may mean that local employers are encouraged to continue the trend.
Making money or not, it's about the similarities in our terms and conditions, which sometimes come for quite a different remuneration. Also, it's about the indication that some public schools may have much more than they say they have. If a school can take a hundred thousand bribe from some parent just for the right to have the kid enrolled there, and if the school's leadership can drive band new foreign vehicles, there are some indications, aren't there?
So, the angle here is that FTs know what the market is like. |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| igorG wrote: |
| In Guangzhou, an average restaurant meal may cost a single person about 50 quai at least. Not eating out means shopping for food and cooking at home. That 50 quai one will most certainly spend, when single person grocery shopping. |
Ah, there is definately a price difference (assuming we are eating in similar smaller, cheaper places) as dinner here in a group of four would be about 20-30 per person, depending on what kind of dishes you order. Vegetable dishes, 8-15RMb, meat 10-20RMB. I don't eat solo, but even then I think you could do it for 20-30RMB a head in a restaurant (and plenty of cheaper options, one-dish places etc). Again, shopping at home is quite cheap, unless you are looking for cuts of steak etc. Vegetables here in particular (in markets or supermarkets) are really cheap if you want a stir fry or whatnot.
| Quote: |
| However, this really applies to a local more likely as many of us aren't up for daily rice parties, bones sucking and/or biting, and boiled water drinking. |
I don't each much rice (it's cheap anyway), or much meat (especially in summer) but don't mind bones, and basic vegetable or tofu dishes, which helps keep costs down I suppose. I used to drink boiled water, but now buy one of those 17 litre jobs for my water dispenser--here 11 bottles can be had for 100RMB (they bring one at a time, of course).
| Quote: |
| A well sized sesoned beef steak in a local supermarket is at 30 quai. I buy 12 quai bread/baguette 4 times a week, which costs me over 200 quai monthly. One litter box of local milk is at about 14 quai and i buy about 4 of those weekly too. That's, with the bread all together at about 500 quai monthly...What brings your monthly costs up are the other milk products such as butter, cheese and yoghurt. A small President's Choice butter in a local Jusco supermarket is at 20 quai and a 200 grams gouda cheese at 40 quai. By myself, i eat butter (cook with butter) and cheese for about 200 quai per month. By the way, you may buy an instant Nestle Coffee bottle, that lasts for about a week, for 50 quai...another morethan 200 quai a month. |
This is where we differ, I eat almost no western food as I find it is overpriced and of questionable quality anyway. I eat Chinese food every day. The exception for me would be coffee (which I buy). I drink a cafetiere of coffee every morning (probably about 750ml or 1L), I buy ground coffee from Metro or Carrefore, it costs 30RMB a pack, and they last me a week or two.
| Quote: |
| Going out clubbing in Guangzhou, means one may have to take a subway, taxi or bus. A short one-way taxi ride is at 10 quai, one-way subway at about 4-5 quai. A local beer in an average club is at about 25-30 quai, foreign brands at about 40. READING THE QUOTES ABOVE MAKES ME WONDER WHETHER I AM MISSING SOMETHING. PERHAPS I CAN'T ADD UP THE NUMBERS. |
That sounds about the same as here. As I said, I rarely go to bars (maybe once a month), I prefer to drink with others at home, in restaurants or, as my apartment building has a garden with benches, ponds etc., out there sometimes. |
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MisterButtkins
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 1221
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| igorG wrote: |
In Guangzhou, an average restaurant meal may cost a single person about 50 quai at least. Not eating out means shopping for food and cooking at home. That 50 quai one will most certainly spend, when single person grocery shopping. However, this really applies to a local more likely as many of us aren't up for daily rice parties, bones sucking and/or biting, and boiled water drinking. Then, campus food isn't always that great too, is it? A well sized sesoned beef steak in a local supermarket is at 30 quai. I buy 12 quai bread/baguette 4 times a week, which costs me over 200 quai monthly. One litter box of local milk is at about 14 quai and i buy about 4 of those weekly too. That's, with the bread all together at about 500 quai monthly. Bottled water costs me another about 500 quai monthly, but i have two kids. Perhaps, it's half that for a reasonable single person that does not want to drink some local crap. What brings your monthly costs up are the other milk products such as butter, cheese and yoghurt. A small President's Choice butter in a local Jusco supermarket is at 20 quai and a 200 grams gouda cheese at 40 quai. By myself, i eat butter (cook with butter) and cheese for about 200 quai per month. By the way, you may buy an instant Nestle Coffee bottle, that lasts for about a week, for 50 quai...another morethan 200 quai a month. Going out clubbing in Guangzhou, means one may have to take a subway, taxi or bus. A short one-way taxi ride is at 10 quai, one-way subway at about 4-5 quai. A local beer in an average club is at about 25-30 quai, foreign brands at about 40. READING THE QUOTES ABOVE MAKES ME WONDER WHETHER I AM MISSING SOMETHING. PERHAPS I CAN'T ADD UP THE NUMBERS.
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well, you answered my question of how people are spending so much money. Personally I never eat imported food or western food. Most of the products you mentioned (butter, cheese, steak, instant coffee, peanut butter) aren't very healthy anyways. I'm also not sure how you are spending 500 kuai monthly on bottled water. Here the 17 liter jug is only 8-10 yuan... even if it costs double that where you live there's no way you need 25 of those per month. |
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GuestBob
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| MisterButtkins wrote: |
| ...spending 500 kuai monthly on bottled water... |
Well what do you expect people to bathe in? Asses milk? |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| the people who can't save any money here in China are the same people who were always broke when they were back home too. it all boils down to budgeting and living within your means. |
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