Job Discussion Forums

[I'm With Stupid]

I've always thought it would make more sense (in the city at least) to have the motorbike lane in the centre of the road, with the car lane next to the pavement. It seems that taxis and buses cause far more disruption constantly crossing over the bike lane to pick up passengers than bikes would doing the same thing. Am I onto something here, or is it a stupid suggestion?

[mark_in_saigon]

One could argue it in various ways, like, what about all the guys going the wrong direction over there in the far right, and also what about the motos coming on and off the sidewalks and side roads and all. But to me, the main thing to consider is that logic is not the central feature of the system, nor is serious control. If the system was ever actually controlled in a logical way, you could come up with countless process improvements. But when so much of what you see is just uncontrolled free for all, I think the idea of making big changes is mostly daydreaming. Yeah, it may all be great, but then, it would not be VN. I just don't see much going on out there about logic or control, other than the logic of self interest. But it is interesting to note that the cars do mostly follow their rule, a lot more than the motos follow theirs, and I think it is because the cars tend to get fleeced a lot more. But other than that rule about staying on their side, the cars seem to have no other rules they are serious about.

[flyingmonkey]

After living in Vietnam a few years, I've found myself entering a state of "learned helplessness." A US psychologist in the 1970s did a lot of experiments involving adminstering electric shocks to dogs. He found that after being shocked many times, some dogs just gave up and no longer tried to resist being schocked. When I enter the teacher's room and hear a foreign teacher telling a story about how they witnessed a Vietnamese driver doing something totally stupid I automatically tune that person out. So what? It's not like I can do anything to make a difference.

[mark_in_saigon]

an interesting term. I think we could go a step further and conjecture that something like this is the reason the VN follow the processes they do (or lack of process). When put in a logical system, they can be excellent performers. Over here, there is really no reward for controlled behavior nor punishment for bad behavior, or at least in the realm of driving. That was also part of the concept of the socialist system as well, it was not meant to reward the best and punish the worst. The VN themselves may all be in this same stated of learned helplessness.

I do agree we have to reach a state of understanding and acceptance of this chaos, not just driving, but so much of life. We cannot let it eat away at our happiness either. And, to some extent, we even have to embrace it, like the driving part, you are rather forced to follow their patterns. But I hope I never reach the point where I feel that their standards are the ones I want to use in my life. I do see some things working properly sometimes. I try to always remember, if the system was first class, they would have no need for us, and the wonderful things we can have so easily and cheaply would not be there for us.

[DNK]

So, it's better for all motorbikes to constantly weave in and out of the car/bus/taxi/truck lane whenever they turn or enter a street, rather than for them to have to deal with the cars/buses/taxis/trucks sporadically moving into their lane? Imagining how that would work is bringing a traffic nightmare to mind.

Regarding the driving skills of Vietnamese: take a million Americans and hand them motorbikes and tell them to go at it in HCM and let's see how it goes down...

Perhaps it's not a state of "learned helplessness" but just a giving up of our cultural conventions regarding what is and isn't "smart" road behavior. Realize also that given the complexity and intensity of traffic conditions, there's not nearly as much free 'mental space' available to drivers for making well thought out maneuvers. There are also severe fatigue issues for drivers that will further reduce the apparent intelligence of their decisions. There really isn't much time/thought to be given to the consideration of other motorists when you have to weave through oncoming traffic of dozens of motorbikes, cars, and buses in order to make a simple left turn.

I think the real issues with the driving are city planning, or the lack thereof. How much can you expect from drivers when the top-down planning is as chaotic, random, and free-form as the typical driving style? I mean, driving around the grid of D1, the traffic tends to behave in a far more sensible manner (at least until you get to the edges of the grid) than in, say, Phu Nhuan.

[toiyeuthitmeo]

when i come to my daily roundabout, i'm amazed by the chaotic efficiency of it. sometimes you're a hair's length from a coach-load of coif, other times there's a seamless transfer, and now and then a knob does something silly that makes the citizen in front of me slow down suddenly, causing me to slow down suddenly, and when i get to my iced coffee joint of choice, i still give thanks that i ain't in Los Angeles.