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Noelle
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 361
Location: USA
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 Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:19 am Post subject: Saudis trying to negotiate with me here in the U.S. |
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So I've been hopping in and out of this forum for the past year as I started teaching in a program that is dominated by Saudis just one year ago here in the U.S.
I've learned a lot about Saudi males in particular, at least how they behave in the presence of foreign women (female teachers). I've decided that behind every smile, every seemingly submissive nod and every "please" and "thank you", is a wolf in sheep's clothing. So I'm not deluded about the way these male students see me and my female co-workers (from mid 20's to mid 30's).
My question now is in regard to what appears to be a cultural tendency of theirs to try and negotiate everything to get what they want from a teacher. Some of their arguments are so absurd it's hard not to wonder how they maneuver an int'l airport to get over here if they are that lacking in common sense.
Are Saudis (males in particular) taught that they can negotiate anything they want? Where is this coming from? They know the rules and policies and yet they seem to think they can "sweet talk" their away around them. Is it an entitlement thing? Or do these guys actually think that by scoring a 53% on a midterm exam in a class that averaged 87%, they can coax a teacher to move them up a level so that they can be in a more advanced class?
Is this some sort of calculated strategy on their part or just plain idiocy? I really am baffled by it. They know the attendance policy (their visa status actually hinges on it) and yet they act as if the teacher should excuse them regardless because... they're Saudi? I'm flummoxed by this recurring problem with my students.
Anyone care to shed some light here? |
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It's Scary!
Joined: 17 Apr 2011
Posts: 823
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Is it an entitlement thing? |
♫Ding!♫, ♫Ding!♫, ♫Ding!♫, ♫Ding!♫, ♫Ding!♫!!! You got it! 
Here's a slight insight from a long-suffering teacher who spent years in the "Belly of the Beast':
"You're either looking for the WORST uni in the Kingdom of Utopia or something that might possibly exist in a desert region on another planet in a galaxy far, far away....
I don't think that any of the old-timers have the time of interest in explaining the psycho-social aspect of the Gulf region, but I'll give it a try. Yer talking about having a Western-oriented idea (forget model!) of education that took the West CENTURIES to develop and perfect coming from students and a native populace who:
-DIDN'T have forests from which they could make books to study and notepaper to write on, therefore developed a verbal-based methodology of communicating ideas using sticks to illustrate their thoughts in the sand. The little bit of wood that could be found in the desert was for firewood or building materials Why do you think that they can't stop talking and rather lose their hand than their mobile or be bothered to read or even bring a notebook to class?
-mostly slept during the heat of the day in tents (as there wasn't much to do) and thrived and travelled at night if they lived in the interior or fished or pearl-dived or traded if they lived on the coast.
-get done at the last possible moment when the last possible cup of tea has been consumed...
-have NO work ethic or pride in themselves as a people that comes from long-held national achievements such as nation-building...
-had commerce that consisted on scraping together what they could or marauding for what they couldn't...there was no industry to speak of.
-were not "colonized" by the various western European powers as they quickly realized that there was nothing to profit from sand or people constantly bickering (communicating) with each other...
The only time that ANY part of this piece of nothingness became ANYTHING close to useful to ANY western power was after the advent of the airplane and the British realized that the lower rim of the P/A Gulf might (and it did!) serve as a place for a few airbases to secure lines of communication to colonies that DID show a profit, such as India and Malaysia. They secured truces with certain sheikhs for these few and far between refueling/refreshing stations and until the early 70's this area was still known as the Trucial States...
FINALLY oil was discovered in this area and money began to flow and infrastructure was developed, but the people were not permitted to progress. Western powers were/are portrayed as a necessary evil and tribal relations/ethos (wasta, majlis, etc...) was reinforced as a way of retaining a false identity. This has allowed cities to appear, industry to develop and transportation links to connect...but only by Western-educated locals or imported labor/brain-power...the vast majority still stay up to all hours of the night talking in their majlises during the evenings, having dinner around 10 p.m. and resenting their Western teachers/bosses who insist that they report to class/work at "ridiculously" early (8-9 a.m.) hours...
Now, EDUCATION! For decades, they brought (and still bring in) Arabic-speaking lackeys from countries that were made by or divvied up by the major European colonial powers, but guess what? Europe had so siphoned off from these peoples that they were near poverty themselves, but the paltry (by Western standards) salaries offered by this region were so fabulous to them as opposed to their domestic standards that they came in droves and stayed. When THEY realized that these folk refused/didn't have the incentive/really didn't want to change and that "change" would only jeopardize their highly-valued paychecks (that allowed them to do things like build their own homes back in their home countries of the MENA and to save for a retirement other than abject poverty), they adapted and underwhelmed by allowing students to come to class when the urge struck them, not assign huge amounts of homework (thereby...insanely...instilling the idea that "education" e.g. going over notes taken in class, ended when the last school bell rang), fashioning tests so that the weakest would pass and changing grades if that didn't work. The locals, on their end, believe that all knowledge comes from Allah and all, as brothers and sisters who have a right to the revelations of Allah have a right...nay...a duty for those who "get it" to share (in the West, "cheat") with others who don't. Inbreeding hasn't helped with the retention of knowledge...
This has been going on at the elementary and secondary educational level since "education" was instituted in this region...
And, now, you want them to come to a university wanting to somehow learn and the mercenaries hired to staff these hallowed halls of education to cover your a$$ when it comes down to yer job or theirs?
Keep dreamin', sister!"
It's downright maddening at times! |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:50 am Post subject: |
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I think I would boil that all down to the fact that this is a culture that does negotiate everything. (you can even negotiate medications in a pharmacy!!)
Add to that the cultural situation that males tend to get whatever they want from birth. I expect that many of them are very surprised when they get to the US and can neither negotiate a higher grade nor get their every desire. 
VS |
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Noelle
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 361
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:51 am Post subject: |
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Well VS and It's Scary
They definitely do seem to be a completely different species of human... comparatively speaking. I think I'm a pretty patient person (having worked in the Far East for a substantial amount of time is a bit sobering) but I can't really say I take it with a grain of salt when these guys try to "sweet talk" me into giving them a higher grade that they don't deserve.
To be fair, the Saudis aren't the only students who do this. But they seem to have the hardest time taking no for an answer.
Could somebody please explain some of these terms to me? Ie: "wasta"? I've heard that word thrown around but don't really understand it.
It's scary, thanks for the humorous and cleverly expressed response to my question. I never considered the fact that they didn't have trees and therefore no wood for paper and pencils! I think I'm going to have to bring that up to my students this week... just to see how they respond.
Does nobody prepare these students for the cultural differences of studying in the west-- their "necessary evil" so to speak? Are they really coming over here thinking that they're going to be able lie in bed half the day and get up whenever they feel like it for class? If so, I can certainly see why so many of these students have been kicked out of our program over the years! |
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airapets
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 78
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:31 am Post subject: you say you were in East Asia . . . |
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Were you in China?
Wasta is similar to guanxi. This is your personal circle of influence and connections. It is also a measurement of you or your circle's ability to have things done or influence people in high positions. |
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Saudi4Ever
Joined: 25 Mar 2004
Posts: 135
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| The generation that you are teaching had paper...plenty of it and school in Saudi starts at 6:45am, so they only sleep late on weekends, holidays and in the summer. |
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It's Scary!
Joined: 17 Apr 2011
Posts: 823
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Does nobody prepare these students for the cultural differences of studying in the west-- their "necessary evil" so to speak? Are they really coming over here thinking that they're going to be able lie in bed half the day and get up whenever they feel like it for class? If so, I can certainly see why so many of these students have been kicked out of our program over the years! |
In a word, No. Have you noticed that these people are incapable of reading directions, come to class sporting pens, if anything, for writing and tend to be overly "forgetful? That's because ALL directions are read to them, in Arabic, even in their "English" classes, they're not required to take notes (I mean, why should they if they can get failing scores changed and teachers sent packing?) and, since they wield ultimate power in their homelands where the laws applied to them are ABSOLUTELY different than those applied to non-nationals and they are absolutely catered to and carressed by indulgence from cradle to grave, why develop anything such as a skillset or memory strategies?
Mind you, I'm talking only about the Saudis, Emiratis, Qataris and Kuwaitis.
It's mind-boggling! |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Saudi4Ever wrote: |
| The generation that you are teaching had paper...plenty of it and school in Saudi starts at 6:45am, so they only sleep late on weekends, holidays and in the summer. |
He was talking about the distant past which was a major influence in the fact that it is an oral/aural culture. He didn't suggest that the current generations didn't have paper.
As to the early morning class starts, we could get into the number that never show up on time and/or the number who sleep through the first three hours of class. I'm referring to older students here... not the kiddies.
VS |
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Noelle
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 361
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I have worked in China. But I am not familiar with this "circle of influence" you speak of. I have heard that students attempt to pull this at our school though. I know it has infuriated any number of teachers.
In my case, I have really only experienced it with husband and wife teams. Generally, the husband will throw up a huge fuss over his wife not getting a certain grade or being allowed to pass into a certain level. I've rarely heard of the wife throwing a tantrum for her husband, but it may happen on occasion too.
It's Scary, you sound as though you've had a pretty bitter experience with this population and forgive me but I think you're a bit of a doomsayer. However, you clearly know much more than I do and so I value your advice. I just feel like not every Saudi, Kuwaiti, Emirati etc... can be generalized the same way. Then again, I may very well be proven wrong.
I can deal with the cultural differences the Saudis bring to our program to a degree. I respect and appreciate where they've come from, especially with regards to their religious convictions (those who actually are Muslim in practice and not only in name). But what I can't tolerate is this blatant lack of respect for rules and the disregard for accountability. I couldn't handle it in Asia and I haven't softened to it here.
The Saudi students have gotten a reputation in our program for being the most disagreeable, immature and just plain annoying group among all the other students represented. Mind you, they are the vast majority of our student population. And it is mostly the male students who have created this stigma.
Hmph...
Thanks everyone for contributing to this discussion. While I will not be making any plans to teach in S.A. in the near or distant future, this has all given me some very good food for thought in regard to my pursuit of employment elsewhere in the Middle East! |
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It's Scary!
Joined: 17 Apr 2011
Posts: 823
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| It's Scary, you sound as though you've had a pretty bitter experience with this population and forgive me but I think you're a bit of a doomsayer. However, you clearly know much more than I do and so I value your advice. I just feel like not every Saudi, Kuwaiti, Emirati etc... can be generalized the same way. |
It's obvious that you completely misunderstood me. I'm being frank. I don't think that you can find anyone but a handful on these boards outside of out and out sycophants who like these people more.
I currently teach and equal number of Saudis and Emiratis in a military setting here. I work hard to instill genuine pride (as in being personally proud of a high score that they earned), positive study habits (which contribute to their higher scores), and personal responsibility (such as showing up for class and not having an excuse for every failure in life.
These were once proud, self-reliant people who lived off the land, sea or plunder. Through the discovery of oil, they have been reduced to a people who are dependent on those who would want to extract as much capital as possible. These modern Gulf Arab nations have had the experience of country-building stolen from them by outside powers who convinced them that oil wealth allowed them to sit back amd "manage" the results. The best and worst thing ever to befall them was the discovery of vast amounts of oil and gas. I feel that it has diminished them.
No, I indeed did not have a bitter experience. But, sometimes, the truth can sound harsh.
It's the God's Honest Truth! |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Noelle,
Speaking of "generalizations:
"I've decided that behind every smile, every seemingly submissive nod and every "please" and "thank you", is a wolf in sheep's clothing."
It's Scary's description was, in my opinion, accurate. Sure, it's something of a generalization. But when you ask a "generalized question"
"My question now is in regard to what appears to be a cultural tendency of theirs to try and negotiate everything to get what they want from a teacher.
"Are Saudis (males in particular) taught that they can negotiate anything they want?"
were you expecting an "non-generalized" answer?
Regards,
John |
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Middle East Beast
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 836
Location: Up a tree
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Noelle wrote: |
It's Scary, you sound as though you've had a pretty bitter experience with this population and forgive me but I think you're a bit of a doomsayer. However, you clearly know much more than I do and so I value your advice. I just feel like not every Saudi, Kuwaiti, Emirati etc... can be generalized the same way. Then again, I may very well be proven wrong.
But what I can't tolerate is this blatant lack of respect for rules and the disregard for accountability.
The Saudi students have gotten a reputation in our program for being the most disagreeable, immature and just plain annoying group among all the other students represented.
While I will not be making any plans to teach in S.A. in the near or distant future, this has all given me some very good food for thought in regard to my pursuit of employment elsewhere in the Middle East! |
I'd be careful labeling someone a "doomsayer" for telling truth that doesn't tickle the ears. Some truth is just dark; it's still truth. By doing so the "label maker" is revealing him/herself as a bit of a Mary Poppins, or worse, a Martha Stewart--not everything in this world is "a good thing." There are good things, but it chaps me when someone tries to spin every dark truth into something "positive."
Many think that a person is either an optimist or a pessimist. But there's a third option--realist. If it's good, it's good, but if it's bad, it ain't good.
Regarding blatant lack of respect for rules, I'd add "and teachers."
I, too, thought Saudis made the worst students...then I went to HCT in the UAE. They're worse. Don't look for better students there. Just search for "HCT" and you can read about some of those experiences.
MEB  |
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It's Scary!
Joined: 17 Apr 2011
Posts: 823
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I just feel like not every Saudi, Kuwaiti, Emirati etc... can be generalized the same way. |
That's a pretty good rule to believe in. Of course, there are the exceptions...but they are so rare that one starts to sound like a scyophant if one goes on and on about how good some of have broken the mold.
Let's call it a 96% rule for that part of the world. 96% acts very nearly and believe in very nearly the same thing. 4% don't. It's like the phonetic change that the "silent 'e'" has on the preceding vowel. The rule holds for about 96% of these words. But, to go on and on how "have" and some others don't follow the rule is a bit much!
Noelle, I wonder, are there any Saudis in your group who are going "against the grain", so to speak? Or, can you generally say that their behavior is similar?
It's only my opinion! |
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walkin to the future
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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Great post up there It's Scary! I can totally see the honesty in this, and I understand as I spent time in Korea, and although it's not as extreme, the hagwon scene is very similar.
Good god, what am I getting myself into?
I would really appreciate a bit of insight from some of the old vets as to how they balance the demand that the students actually learn something (or is there one?) and the demand of the students to keep them happy and go along with the game?
Do you kind of have to forget about being a "real" teacher in order to make it in Saudi?
Have any of you got any different results by putting in extra work to make the classes interesting for the students and have any of you had any luck actually inspiring some real learning and work habits?
Or do you go to work and teach your lesson and just let them decide how they want to take it?
I seem to see a lot of people saying here that you can't change them and there is no point banging your head against the wall trying. So is it just best to go through the motions and go with the flow, or will this drive you crazier than trying to institute some real actual learning?
Very much looking forward to the replies on these questions, although I do realize they are all kind of different facets of the same question. Cheers. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Dear walkin to the future,
A LOT depends on where you work. First, let me answer your questions:
(Disclaimer: this is ONLY MY experience)
Do you kind of have to forget about being a "real" teacher in order to make it in Saudi?
No
Have any of you got any different results by putting in extra work to make the classes interesting for the students and have any of you had any luck actually inspiring some real learning and work habits?
Yes
Or do you go to work and teach your lesson and just let them decide how they want to take it?
No
I seem to see a lot of people saying here that you can't change them and there is no point banging your head against the wall trying. So is it just best to go through the motions and go with the flow, or will this drive you crazier than trying to institute some real actual learning?
Depends on where you work.
My experience was with the Institute of Public Administration. In the 80s, all our students were college grads who were going to go to the States to get MAs or Ph.Ds. I had some excellent students - and some hopeless cases.
In the 90s and beyond, it was high school grads and the level of ability, motivation, interest did go down. But in all my time there (19 years) I can truthfully say that i found just about the same "breakdown" in my classes that you find all over the world:
10% really good
80% on a sliding scale, from pretty bad to good
10% hopeless.
Regards,
John |
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