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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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 Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| einsenundnullen wrote: |
| G Cthulhu wrote: |
Yes, all very true, but I think you are missing the point and condition I initially included in my post: if everyone involved is a fully aware and consenting adult.
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On the serious side, your last 10 words sum up one (of several) major problems with this. They're not adults. Sure, you've got some writing after that about ages of consent being arbitrary, and they are, but I can't accept the idea that some of these Japanese kids have some sort of highly enlightened understanding of sex.
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And I agree.
But by the same token, I would say that there are teenagers out there that *would* meet any reasonable definition of a 'consenting adult'. Just as there are people out there in their mid-twenties that *wouldn't*. That's the whole point about age of consent laws being arbitrary. *That's* why I'm saying that the moral outrage being expressed by some here is mis-guided IMO.
BTW, you're mis-representing me in the last part above. I said that IMO they have a better and more mature attitude as a rule in comparison to US teenagers. If you're going to discuss this then please have the courtesy to do so on what I say, not on mis-representations.
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On the less serious side, but still serious as it pertains to such a topic, Homer was right! You are the ultimate libertarian! lol
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I can assure you I am very much *not* a libertarian. Socialist through and through is me, thanks. :)
(Waits for the Americans to misunderstand and call me a communist... ;( )
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Homer probably set a good benchmark: one's own children. Would you want a given thing for your kids, your family, your community? It's not really rhetorical.
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It's an emotive question and says more about the questioner than they'd like to admit IMO. Gordon's question about prostitution would be the same IMO.
As far as my daughter is concerned it's not a matter of whether I mind or not. It's her choice and she'll make it regardless of anything I do. *All* I can do is make sure she is fully informed about the options and facts before she makes it and then trust her to make a good choice for herself. <shrug> Yes, there's interplay and tensions between the ideals being expressed there, but that's my whole point: there are no hard a fast rules that can be applied. Anyone that thinks there are is simply deluding themselves IMO. |
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einsenundnullen
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 10:18 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, the question could bring out some emotion. It's my guess, however, that it would be the result of 'cognitive dissonance.'
Finally:
Yup! |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Cthulhu,
You didn't really answer the question. I know it is your daughter's choice to make, but it is up to parents to guide the children in the way we feel is right and give our advice. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| What goes on in Japan is none of my business. |
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Zzonkmiles
Joined: 05 Apr 2003
Posts: 309
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Gordon wrote: |
Cthulhu,
You didn't really answer the question. I know it is your daughter's choice to make, but it is up to parents to guide the children in the way we feel is right and give our advice. |
This type of questioning really doesn't add much to the debate, I don't think.
Do you want your children to smoke? No, but sometimes they do.
Do you want your children to do drugs? No, but sometimes they do.
Do you want your children to go to college? Yes, but sometimes they don't.
Do you want your children to have premarital sex? Probably not, but some of them will.
Do you want your children to get divorced? No, but some of them will.
Do you want your children to use foul language? No, but sometimes they will.
Do you want your children to live thousands of kilometers away from you in a foreign country for an indefinite period of time? Probably not, but then why are so many of us in Japan now? Hmmm?
I think Cthulhu's response is appropriate and he/she doesn't really owe anybody an explanation. The best you can do is educate your children and give them the confidence to make intelligent decisions. Yes, parents can guide and educate their children, but ultimately, each person is responsible for the decisions he or she makes.
People really should leave their cultural and religious biases out of the equation here. It's Japan, not England or America or New Zealand or whatever. This is the country that stuffs porn advertisements in your mailbox everyday. This is the country where salarymen relieve themselves on the side of the street in broad daylight. Lots of stuff happens here that you might not agree with. But that's just the reality of what goes on in this country. And such "vile" practices are not unique to Japan at all. Think about countries where polygamy is legal. Or where women can't leave the house. Hell, you could legally marry someone in some parts of the US when you're 14, I think.
I would never participate in this EK stuff. I have no need to. But if two people agree to it and are willing to accept the risks involved (a lost marriage, STDs, sexual violence--all of which can happen between men and women who are in their teens as well as their 40s, EK relationship or not), then I say it's none of my business. At all.
In a way, I think Japan is so much further ahead of the West in regards to sex. This stuff happens back in the West too, but nobody wants to talk about it. It's "dirty" and "sinful" and "inappropriate for children." Whatever.
Last edited by Zzonkmiles on Tue May 11, 2004 2:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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shmooj
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1758
Location: Seoul, ROK
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
| What goes on in Japan is none of my business. |
it being none of your business doesn't usually stop you from posting scot? Why the cold feet now?  |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| Gordon wrote: |
You didn't really answer the question. I know it is your daughter's choice to make, but it is up to parents to guide the children in the way we feel is right and give our advice.
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I think I did.
I just think that I didn't give the answer you *wanted*. :)
As I said, there are many things that come into the question. Emotively loaded questions like, "Would you want your daughter doing X?!" are unhelpful IMO. They ignore the reality and complxity of the situation.
They also display the prejudices of those asking them IMO. What's so bad about prostitution per se? It's illegal in your country and your country has a long history of prudishness over things sexual? Fine. Lovely for you. I understand where you're coming from then. What if *I* don't come from a country where that's the case? And what if we're *both* living in a third country with different history and standards again? :)
I agree that parents are there to guide and answer questions. Just as I think it is a parents job to lay down the law or step in when we feel they are making decisions based on incomplete or bad information. But that's my whole point! In the instance where the people involved *are* able to make a properly informed choice then I don't see that I or anyone else has any real say in it being 'right' or 'wrong'. |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
| What goes on in Japan is none of my business. |
Well said indeed!
I've just thought about something....perhaps this enjo kosai business isn't so bad after all...
50,000 yen per meeting? Just imagine, if someone's daughter did that just once a week, that's 200,000 yen a month, and if father takes half of that, it leaves the girl with 100,000 yen a month, which she can use to buy a few Louis Vuitton purses a month.
The remaining 100,000 will be the monthly payment for daddy's new BMW! Or could be the monthly payment for two Toyotas, one for mum and one for dad!
The salaryman will get relieved of his sexual tensions and avoid killing himself and will be an even more dedicated employee.
Corporations will have better employees and will run more efficiently, and this means higher profits for the shareholders.
The government could get involved too and start taxing this business, which would procure the funds needed to take care of all social services, hospitals, etc.
Everyone wins in the end!
Vote for me now! Together we will bring Japan back to its glory days!
errr...on the other hand, maybe we should realise the fact that there is something that just feels "wrong" about enjo kosai and regardless of people's opinions about it, turning young girls into whores is looked down upon in most of the civilised world.
I'm not saying it's wrong or right....just that we should consider both sides of the story. |
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Synne
Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 269
Location: Tohoku
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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Everyone wins in the end!
Vote for me now! Together we will bring Japan back to its glory days! |
Of course, its all that easy, why didnt we see it before?! ^^;; : P
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| I'm not saying it's wrong or right....just that we should consider both sides of the story. |
true, this will -as most things do- come down to your own opinion on the matter. |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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SEndrigo,
How come you have changed your name? I remember you were posting last year about Japan and recognize you from your escapeartist book. |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| Gordon wrote: |
SEndrigo,
How come you have changed your name? I remember you were posting last year about Japan and recognize you from your escapeartist book. |
Well, you know, starting fresh is never a bad thing eh 
I got tired of all the hate mail directed toward me and thought that if I changed my user name, I might get a more favourable response here. So far, that has worked.
I'll be coming over in June to work for AEON
I know you are not based in Tokyo, but tell me, is it true that there is a Canadian bar there?
Life is going to be difficult without NHL hockey...on the other hand, it might not matter due to the impending lockout (if there is a God out there, he'll prevent this from happening, lol). |
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vash3000
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 4:25 am Post subject: |
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So...what`s the legal age in Gunma?
Best,
V. |
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homersimpson
Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 569
Location: Kagoshima
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| So...what`s the legal age in Gunma? |
The "legal age of consent in Japan remains 13." However, "in November 1999, Japan enacted a law making it illegal to pay for sex with anyone under 18."
http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/04-26-03/opening_9.asp |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| vash3000 wrote: |
So...what`s the legal age in Gunma?
Best,
V. |
vash!
Whilst reading that article posted by homersimpson, I noticed this:
"In January, a 47-year-old Gunma Prefecture elementary school teacher confessed to paying a 13-year-old 20,000 yen for sex"
LOL
was that about you?!?!
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vash3000
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 5:05 am Post subject: |
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Guess I kinda opened myself up for that one, huh?
Actually, I remember being propositioned by two girls in a video store a few months back.
Ages 14 and 15, they were in the "Adult" movie section. Upon scolding them for being too young, I was informed that they both had boyfriends twice their age.
I suddently felt like an old prude, and I`m not even old...
Best,
V.
(Incidentally, I was just trying to get to the new releases.) |
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