Job Discussion Forums

[Stephen Jones]

Methinks Clancy is a troll - modern not medieval variety.

The Crusades were indeed a sordid affair; to realize how sordid I recommend a classic published in 1849, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds by Charles Mackay.
Most of it deals with financial lunacy such as the South Sea Bubble or Tulip Mania, but it has over a hundred pages dealing with the Crusades. Wordsworth editions publish a cheap paperback but, as it is long out of copyright, you should be able to download a free copy from the Gutenberg Pioject or elsewhere.

[Hector_Lector]

We should launch a crusade against Clancey.

[Hector_Lector]

Or should that be �Clancy� - sounds suspiciously like �Nancy�.

Rhymes with�plonker�.

[khmerhit]

Rhymes with Cowboy Pete.

[Clancy]

Clancy is no troll. Just sick of some of you liberal doves.

Doves are best eaten after roasted you know!

Suggesting that my son desert his unit or that he is a murderer is not just over the top, it is so far out there that I wish I had the real names and addresses because I would start my own crusade.

[Hector_Lector]

�he is a murdered�?

A murdered what?

Gee, you are scarey.

[gugelhupf]

Strange how the term "liberal" can be used as an insult on one side of the Atlantic and a mild compliment on the other. One wonders if "neo-conservative" works the other way around?

[zaneth]

Can we really say, objectively, that these policies don't work?

Brought to you by the same folks who brought you Texas, Hawaii, the Phillipines, banana groves in South America, or for that matter: New York, Boston, etc.?

Isn't it all a continuation?

[justcolleen]

[justcolleen]

Published Monday, May 10, 2004
http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews/pm19736_20040510.htm

Red Cross report describes systematic U.S. abuse in Iraq

Monday, May 10, 2004

BY ALEXANDER G. HIGGINS
ASSOCIATED PRESS

GENEVA - The Red Cross saw American officers mistreating Abu Ghraib prisoners by keeping them naked in total darkness in empty cells, and up to 90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake, according to a report disclosed Monday.

The report by the International Committee of the Red Cross supports its allegations that abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers was broad and ``not individual acts'' - contrary to President Bush's contention that the mistreatment ``was the wrongdoing of a few.''

``ICRC delegates directly witnessed and documented a variety of methods used to secure the cooperation of the persons deprived of their liberty with their interrogators,'' according to the confidential report.

The delegates saw in October how detainees at Abu Ghraib were kept ``completely naked in totally empty concrete cells and in total darkness,'' the report said. It said it found evidence supporting prisoners' allegations of other forms of abuse during arrest, initial detention and interrogation.

Among the evidence were burns, bruises and other injuries consistent with the abuse that prisoners alleged, it said.

The 24-page document, confirmed by the ICRC as authentic after it was published Monday by the Wall Street Journal, said the abuses were primarily during the interrogation stage by military intelligence.

Once the detainees were moved to regular prison facilities, the abuses typically stopped, it said.

The report cites abuses - some ``tantamount to torture'' - including brutality, hooding, humiliation and threats of ``imminent execution.''

``These methods of physical and psychological coercion were used by the military intelligence in a systematic way to gain confessions and extract information and other forms of cooperation from person who had been arrested in connection with suspected security offenses or deemed to have an 'intelligence value.'''

The agency said arrests allegedly tended to follow a pattern.

``Arresting authorities entered houses usually after dark, breaking down doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family members into one room under military guard while searching the rest of the house and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property,'' the report said.

``Sometimes they arrested all adult males present in a house, including elderly, handicapped or sick people,'' it said. ``Treatment often included pushing people around, insulting, taking aim with rifles, punching and kicking and striking with rifles.''

It said some coalition military intelligence officers estimated ``between 70 percent and 90 percent of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake. They also attributed the brutality of some arrests to the lack of proper supervision of battle group units.''

Pierre Kraehenbuehl, ICRC director of operations, said Friday the report had been given to U.S. officials in February, but it only summarized what the agency had been telling U.S. officials in detail between March and November 2003 ``either in direct face-to-face conversations or in written interventions.''

Kraehenbuehl said the abuse of prisoners represented more than isolated acts, and that the problems were not limited to Abu Ghraib.

``We were dealing here with a broad pattern, not individual acts. There was a pattern and a system,'' he said, declining to give further details.

The report described how male prisoners were forced to parade around in women's underwear.

It said that information obtained ``suggested the use of ill-treatment against persons deprived of their liberty went beyond exceptional cases and might be considered a practice tolerated by'' coalition forces.

Kraehenbuehl said the ICRC regretted the publication and said it would have preferred sticking to its policy of confidential discussions with coalition authorities because the United States had been making progress toward meeting its demands.

ICRC chief spokeswoman Antonella Notari declined to discuss the full report.

[shmooj]

[Stephen Jones]

My posts have been accused of plenty of things Clancy but dovish is not one of them, unless the doves habit of crapping on stone heads be what you are referring to.

Frankly I think I prefer serial murderers to your kind. Firstly they generally kill a lot less people, and secondly they are not psychotic enough to expect us to respect them for it.

[gugelhupf]

I see thast the US has just imposed economic sanctions against Syria amid accusations of the Syrians supporting terrorists.

Can't imagine why he wants to pick a fight there 'cos they have no oil... oh, sorry, I forgot. George isn't commander in chief. That's Ariel's job.

[Aramas]

Owning Syria will allow overland access between Iraq and Israel. Perhaps they have plans for a pipline.

[cimarch]

And now we have the Iraqi response:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040512/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=716
Whether or not you believe the original photos were faked this sure wasn't, they found his body beside an expressway that evening.

A short quote: