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TTTT
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 30
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 Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| I also did not say that working for WC does not provide "teaching experience". You said it is university experience that one can put on a resume. Sorry, but it is dispatch work, usually for non-accredited classes. |
I'd rather not play semantics with you. In any case, it seems that not all of the work is non-accredited for WG. Dispatched or not, your feet are in that university classroom and you are teaching university kids and getting paid for it. I'm not writing anyone's resume here, but that's university experience.
| Quote: |
| A "university experience" that one can call such is FT or PT work where you give grades, deal with the administration (not WC) as your boss, and in the case of FT teachers do so much more (entrance exams, private office, attend committee meetings, etc.). With WC you are merely a hired gun intended to do only the tasks that WC gives to you. A PT direct hire has more "university experience" than a WC teacher. |
From an academic�s standpoint, of course it's better to get a direct hire. We all know that. I'm just giving Rambo information about what he asked about. What you are describing resembles professorial experience, which is related, but encompasses more responsibility and very likely just as much bureaucracy. (Or a "disorganized and unprofessional environment" as in Mr. Monkey's case!)
| Quote: |
| Yes, you can say you had college students when you work for WC, but you cannot say you worked for XYZ University. That's about the extent of what you can put on a resume regarding WC and uni "experience". |
True enough, but couldn't Rambo say, "I worked for WG company at XYZ University." Who knows, with some experience at XYZ University you might have even met professor ABC. Maybe professor ABC has a lot of the same students as you so he has an idea about your capabilities as a teacher. Maybe he also knows someone else on the hiring committee at University DEF and puts in a good word. Seems like a perfectly plausible way for Rambo to move his way up the proverbial pole, if that�s his aspiration. I say Rambo weighs his options.
Anyways, how many MA TESOL holders with no previous connection to Japan do you know that got a university direct hire from abroad?? I�m guessing none, but I would be all ears if you said otherwise. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:08 am Post subject: |
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TTTT,
Looks like you finally are indeed playing semantics, or at least understand how to use them.
Yes, it is acceptable to say you worked for WC at Uni X. Review committees will know what that means (very little).
As for putting teacher in quotes and calling it negative, how about your own use of 'real' teachers earlier? Pot, meet kettle.
| Quote: |
| I'm just giving Rambo information about what he asked about. What you are describing resembles professorial experience, which is related, but encompasses more responsibility and very likely just as much bureaucracy. |
For a FT teacher at a uni, yes. That is precisely the uni "experience" that I'm talking about, not just being in the classroom and (what you seem to be avoiding) giving lessons only WC provides/formats.
| Quote: |
| Who knows, with some experience at XYZ University you might have even met professor ABC. Maybe professor ABC has a lot of the same students as you so he has an idea about your capabilities as a teacher. Maybe he also knows someone else on the hiring committee at University DEF and puts in a good word. Seems like a perfectly plausible way for Rambo to move his way up the proverbial pole, if that�s his aspiration. |
From the schedule of a WC teacher that I'm aware of, meeting any teacher directly hired by the uni is pretty unlikely. |
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TTTT
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
TTTT,
Yes, it is acceptable to say you worked for WC at Uni X. Review committees will know what that means (very little). |
As long as you're not on the committee, it's worth a shot.
| Quote: |
| For a FT teacher at a uni, yes. That is precisely the uni "experience" that I'm talking about, not just being in the classroom and (what you seem to be avoiding) giving lessons only WC provides/formats. |
WG gives aims & goals that need to be met, but the teacher has the freedom to decide how to meet them. The only constraint being that those aims/goals must be met. I'd wager a lot of professors have aims & goals that must be met.
| Quote: |
| From the schedule of a WC teacher that I'm aware of, meeting any teacher directly hired by the uni is pretty unlikely. |
Laughs.
I'll ask my question again: How many MA TESOL holders with no previous connection to Japan do you know that got a university direct hire from abroad?? I�m guessing none, but I would be all ears if you said otherwise. |
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simonenglish
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Worked for Westgate a number of years ago. By the end of the contract I had had enough. The lesson plans are poor, and they do keep checking up on you.... They give you an occasional 'free lesson slot' where you can do whatever you want, but by then you are fairly drained of inspiration...
For getting you into Japan it is not a bad gig, but the whole set-up is somewhat fishy, as strictly speaking dispatch companies are not supposed to be involved in any classes taught on a university campus. These companies started off as mostly offering extracurricular classes, but nowadays quite a few are actually directly hiring teachers to work in the university English departments. I don't if Westgate has got into this, but there are a lot of problems in many university programs with cutbacks, teachers losing jobs, and dispatch companies becoming more and more involved in English education at private universities (public universities being more strictly regulated). |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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TTTT,
No need to make personal insults here with your italics and laughs.
| Quote: |
| How many MA TESOL holders with no previous connection to Japan do you know that got a university direct hire from abroad?? |
I fail to see the relevance of this. Since JohnRambo has not been back since his original post, I would suspect he is either a drive-by poster, or is not interested enough to reply with follow-up questions and background info. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| simonenglish wrote: |
Worked for Westgate a number of years ago. By the end of the contract I had had enough. The lesson plans are poor, and they do keep checking up on you.... They give you an occasional 'free lesson slot' where you can do whatever you want, but by then you are fairly drained of inspiration...
For getting you into Japan it is not a bad gig, but the whole set-up is somewhat fishy, as strictly speaking dispatch companies are not supposed to be involved in any classes taught on a university campus. These companies started off as mostly offering extracurricular classes, but nowadays quite a few are actually directly hiring teachers to work in the university English departments. I don't if Westgate has got into this, but there are a lot of problems in many university programs with cutbacks, teachers losing jobs, and dispatch companies becoming more and more involved in English education at private universities (public universities being more strictly regulated). |
If dispatch companies on all levels are doing things illegally, why is it that the situation is so commonly ignored. |
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simonenglish
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
| simonenglish wrote: |
Worked for Westgate a number of years ago. By the end of the contract I had had enough. The lesson plans are poor, and they do keep checking up on you.... They give you an occasional 'free lesson slot' where you can do whatever you want, but by then you are fairly drained of inspiration...
For getting you into Japan it is not a bad gig, but the whole set-up is somewhat fishy, as strictly speaking dispatch companies are not supposed to be involved in any classes taught on a university campus. These companies started off as mostly offering extracurricular classes, but nowadays quite a few are actually directly hiring teachers to work in the university English departments. I don't if Westgate has got into this, but there are a lot of problems in many university programs with cutbacks, teachers losing jobs, and dispatch companies becoming more and more involved in English education at private universities (public universities being more strictly regulated). |
If dispatch companies on all levels are doing things illegally, why is it that the situation is so commonly ignored. |
What is actually defined as 'illegal' is up in the air, or people just ignore it. It is illegal for dispatch companies to provide/manage teachers at universities. But, they came through the back door with extracurricular courses, and now some are involved directly with a number of university departments.
Bottom line is money/time is saved by using dispatch companies, and with many private universities in Japan struggling with falling enrolments and trying to cut costs, these companies are becoming more prevalent. |
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TTTT
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
TTTT,
No need to make personal insults here with your italics and laughs. |
Ahem, YOU laughed at what I had to say first. That was a retaliatory laugh to show disagreement with what you had to say. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
| TTTT wrote: |
| How many MA TESOL holders with no previous connection to Japan do you know that got a university direct hire from abroad?? |
| Glenski wrote: |
| I fail to see the relevance of this. Since JohnRambo has not been back since his original post, I would suspect he is either a drive-by poster, or is not interested enough to reply with follow-up questions and background info. |
The relevance is that he said he was coming from abroad with those qualifications. A lot of people who post here also are looking at Japan from abroad (you probably know this since you have 11,000 posts  ). Do they have a shot at a direct hire? It's pretty relevant. IF not, a LEGITIMATE working visa with a company such as WG is a viable option to get a MA TESOL holder started in Japan. The contracts are short, so if it is as "draining of inspiration" as simonenglish says you can move on.
Anyways, consider it my question if you like. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| TTTT wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
TTTT,
No need to make personal insults here with your italics and laughs. |
Ahem, YOU laughed at what I had to say first. That was a retaliatory laugh to show disagreement with what you had to say. You can't have your cake and eat it too. |
I believe I wrote that an interview committee would laugh at someone who claimed WC experience was equivalent to university experience from a direct hire. It was written pretty clearly, I thought, and was not intended to indicate that I personally was doing the laughing. Your overall tone in the last 2 posts is becoming more personal than it should be, and I ask that you keep it down.
| Quote: |
| TTTT wrote: |
| How many MA TESOL holders with no previous connection to Japan do you know that got a university direct hire from abroad?? |
The relevance is that he said he was coming from abroad with those qualifications. |
Actually, all he wrote in this whole 2-page thread was this:
I am in the process of applying to the university jobs connected to West Gate. What can anyone tell me about them? I would like to know as much information as possible.
I have an M.A. in TESOL
I do have teaching experience in South Korea at private institutions. I taught English there. I have no publications.
"Private institutions" probably means conversation schools. That is not going to get him a direct hire uni job in Japan. Even if he had uni experience in SK, it is likely to be snubbed by many employers here.
| Quote: |
| A lot of people who post here also are looking at Japan from abroad (you probably know this... Do they have a shot at a direct hire? It's pretty relevant...Anyways, consider it my question if you like. |
If this is all you (not JohnRambo) are asking, then the answer is a pretty succinct one. Yes, they have a shot, but with the scant information JohnRambo gave us (degree only), the answer needs further clarification. I know of 1-2 people who got hired from abroad for uni positions, and one of them had mounds of experience here previously. To be honest, with the years I've been on this and other forums, I can't recall who the other person was, but if you want to take my forum experience for any value, that ought to tell you something, namely that it is very difficult.
Just an MA degree will not be enough in most cases, even if one is applying from within Japan. The FAQ stickies outline what is needed.
| Quote: |
| IF not, a LEGITIMATE working visa with a company such as WG is a viable option to get a MA TESOL holder started in Japan. |
Sigh. Yes, the work visa issued for WC employees is a legitimate one. Never said otherwise. Yes, landing a job with them is indeed a viable option for people. Again, I never said otherwise. The only point of contention here is the semantic one, which I believe we've resolved.
JohnRambo,
If you are still watching this thread, say/ask something. You have not even come back to thank people for their contributions since you last posted on August 7. |
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It's Scary!
Joined: 17 Apr 2011
Posts: 823
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| ...a drive-by poster... |
It's funny! |
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TTTT
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| I believe I wrote that an interview committee would laugh at someone who claimed WC experience was equivalent to university experience from a direct hire. It was written pretty clearly, I thought, and was not intended to indicate that I personally was doing the laughing. |
Well your first laugh did that, but not your second:
| Glenski wrote: |
| I hope you aren't saying that "experience with Westgate" (and having no publications) will trump someone who has publications! More laughs. |
Just to clarify, that's not what I said. I said this:
| TTTT wrote: |
| Also, publications are not the be-all end-all in Japan. Who you know and your experience can trump those who have publications. Get the experience with Westgate and then move on from there. |
Perhaps I should have emphasized "can" so you didn't interpret it to mean "will." Yes, experience and who you know can get you a job without publications. But of course it's better to have been published. It's also better to have a Ph.D. and a last name like Larsen-Freeman.
| TTTT wrote: |
| How many MA TESOL holders with no previous connection to Japan do you know that got a university direct hire from abroad?? The relevance is that he said he was coming from abroad with those qualifications. |
| Glenski wrote: |
Actually, all he wrote in this whole 2-page thread was this:
I am in the process of applying to the university jobs connected to West Gate. What can anyone tell me about them? I would like to know as much information as possible.
I have an M.A. in TESOL
I do have teaching experience in South Korea at private institutions. I taught English there. I have no publications. |
Glenski, actually JohnRambo also said he would need visa sponsorship in his second post.
| TTTT wrote: |
| A lot of people who post here also are looking at Japan from abroad (you probably know this... Do they have a shot at a direct hire? It's pretty relevant...Anyways, consider it my question if you like. |
| Glenski wrote: |
If this is all you (not JohnRambo) are asking, then the answer is a pretty succinct one. Yes, they have a shot, but with the scant information JohnRambo gave us (degree only), the answer needs further clarification. I know of 1-2 people who got hired from abroad for uni positions, and one of them had mounds of experience here previously. To be honest, with the years I've been on this and other forums, I can't recall who the other person was, but if you want to take my forum experience for any value, that ought to tell you something, namely that it is very difficult.
Just an MA degree will not be enough in most cases, even if one is applying from within Japan. The FAQ stickies outline what is needed. |
Awesome, thank you, just as I suspected "very difficult." Which is why people coming from abroad should consider other options if they have their hearts set on coming to Japan. It certainly doesn't hurt your chances to be living in Japan and working at a university.
| TTTT wrote: |
| ...a LEGITIMATE working visa with a company such as WG is a viable option to get a MA TESOL holder started in Japan. |
| Glenski wrote: |
| Sigh. Yes, the work visa issued for WC employees is a legitimate one. Never said otherwise. Yes, landing a job with them is indeed a viable option for people. Again, I never said otherwise. |
I never said that you said otherwise. But with all the remarks about dispatch companies doing illegal work, it seemed important to emphasize that the same companies have legitimate work visas. I'd just like to mention again that I never found anything from your link regarding any illegal practices regarding Westgate. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| simonenglish wrote: |
| rxk22 wrote: |
| simonenglish wrote: |
Worked for Westgate a number of years ago. By the end of the contract I had had enough. The lesson plans are poor, and they do keep checking up on you.... They give you an occasional 'free lesson slot' where you can do whatever you want, but by then you are fairly drained of inspiration...
For getting you into Japan it is not a bad gig, but the whole set-up is somewhat fishy, as strictly speaking dispatch companies are not supposed to be involved in any classes taught on a university campus. These companies started off as mostly offering extracurricular classes, but nowadays quite a few are actually directly hiring teachers to work in the university English departments. I don't if Westgate has got into this, but there are a lot of problems in many university programs with cutbacks, teachers losing jobs, and dispatch companies becoming more and more involved in English education at private universities (public universities being more strictly regulated). |
If dispatch companies on all levels are doing things illegally, why is it that the situation is so commonly ignored. |
What is actually defined as 'illegal' is up in the air, or people just ignore it. It is illegal for dispatch companies to provide/manage teachers at universities. But, they came through the back door with extracurricular courses, and now some are involved directly with a number of university departments.
Bottom line is money/time is saved by using dispatch companies, and with many private universities in Japan struggling with falling enrolments and trying to cut costs, these companies are becoming more prevalent. |
That's what I figured. But still, you'd think the labor board or the union would be actively fighting this. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| TTTT wrote: |
| Well your first laugh did that, but not your second: |
You read more into that than it was meant.
| Quote: |
| Glenski, actually JohnRambo also said he would need visa sponsorship in his second post. |
So?
| Quote: |
| TTTT wrote: |
| A lot of people who post here also are looking at Japan from abroad (you probably know this... Do they have a shot at a direct hire? It's pretty relevant...Anyways, consider it my question if you like. |
| Glenski wrote: |
If this is all you (not JohnRambo) are asking, then the answer is a pretty succinct one. Yes, they have a shot, but with the scant information JohnRambo gave us (degree only), the answer needs further clarification. I know of 1-2 people who got hired from abroad for uni positions, and one of them had mounds of experience here previously. To be honest, with the years I've been on this and other forums, I can't recall who the other person was, but if you want to take my forum experience for any value, that ought to tell you something, namely that it is very difficult.
Just an MA degree will not be enough in most cases, even if one is applying from within Japan. The FAQ stickies outline what is needed. |
Awesome, thank you, just as I suspected "very difficult." |
Again, so?
| Quote: |
| Which is why people coming from abroad should consider other options if they have their hearts set on coming to Japan. |
Uh, yes. That's a no-brainer.
| Quote: |
| It certainly doesn't hurt your chances to be living in Japan and working at a university. |
Totally irrelevant to the situation John Rambo is in. I don't even understand why you bring it up, except to dredge up that semantic preposition again.
| TTTT wrote: |
| with all the remarks about dispatch companies doing illegal work, it seemed important to emphasize that the same companies have legitimate work visas. |
I really don't think this is relevant, either. Of course the visa is "legitimate". It's issued by the government, not the employer! You can be in deep water with a "legitimate" visa. I honestly don't know what you are trying to say here.
| TTTT wrote: |
| I'd just like to mention again that I never found anything from your link regarding any illegal practices regarding Westgate. |
They might have changed how they publish their info. I'm sorry, this might not sound the best, but I have an enormous workload here and can't look up every little detail. What I can tell you is that itaku contracts by dispatch agencies (not the only kind of contract they offer) are indeed illegal, and that places like WC have infiltrated universities with legal contracts, but that such cases are still pushing out existing teachers who were interviewed by the university and accepted as worthy, yet the dispatch agencies do not have the same standards. Moreover, how the dispatch agency treats its own people (often not even considered employees but rather "subcontractors") is despicable, and this is something else the union is trying to fight.
Again, JohnRambo does not even appear to be listening...
| rxk22 wrote: |
| If dispatch companies on all levels are doing things illegally, why is it that the situation is so commonly ignored. |
Excellent question! It is not being ignored by the unions, and you can read some interesting info here about how MEXT has interceded a little, yet BOEs have ignored it and gotten away with it. My only answer is that this reflects the very poor state of education and its relationship/perception by the government in Japan.
http://fukuoka.generalunion.org/alt/index.html#hhh |
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TTTT
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| TTTT wrote: |
| A lot of people who post here also are looking at Japan from abroad (you probably know this... Do they have a shot at a direct hire? It's pretty relevant...Anyways, consider it my question if you like. |
| Glenski wrote: |
If this is all you (not JohnRambo) are asking, then the answer is a pretty succinct one. Yes, they have a shot, but with the scant information JohnRambo gave us (degree only), the answer needs further clarification. I know of 1-2 people who got hired from abroad for uni positions, and one of them had mounds of experience here previously. To be honest, with the years I've been on this and other forums, I can't recall who the other person was, but if you want to take my forum experience for any value, that ought to tell you something, namely that it is very difficult.
Just an MA degree will not be enough in most cases, even if one is applying from within Japan. The FAQ stickies outline what is needed. |
| TTTT wrote: |
| Awesome, thank you, just as I suspected "very difficult." |
| Glenski wrote: |
| Again, so? |
So we're trying to discuss viable options (i.e. WG). For a lot of people wanting to teach in Japan, that might include working for a less than desirable company, paying their dues and trying to move their way up.
| TTTT wrote: |
| with all the remarks about dispatch companies doing illegal work, it seemed important to emphasize that the same companies have legitimate work visas. |
| Glenski wrote: |
| I really don't think this is relevant, either. Of course the visa is "legitimate". It's issued by the government, not the employer! You can be in deep water with a "legitimate" visa. I honestly don't know what you are trying to say here. |
Yes, but it's the company that applies for the Certificate of Eligibility with the government. If that's granted you must take the COE to your local Embassy in order to get your visa. You put the company as your guarantor in the visa application, so let's not act like it's just the government that's involved.
| TTTT wrote: |
| Glenski, actually JohnRambo also said he would need visa sponsorship in his second post. |
So stop saying my posts are irrelevant. I'm giving information regarding WG and Visas, both of which were brought up by the original poster. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| TTTT wrote: |
| Yes, but it's the company that applies for the Certificate of Eligibility with the government. If that's granted you must take the COE to your local Embassy in order to get your visa. You put the company as your guarantor in the visa application, so let's not act like it's just the government that's involved. |
Plenty of shady companies get visa sponsorship. You are aware of the mass dispatch illegalities, yet the government doesn't seem to do much about them.
You ultimately end up working for the company, not the government who gives you the visa.
Unless JohnRambo comes back, or unless someone else posts relevant questions related to his OP, I'm done here. |
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