Job Discussion Forums

[lakers1988]

I was planning on taking a class out in HCMC to recieve my TESOL certificate. I was wondering what the most reputable company to take that class was with. Any information would be really helpful.

Thank You

[mark_in_saigon]

lots of info on this subject already posted. I will be posting about this soon, I finally had time to take one recently, and shopped around rather thoroughly first. It seems to me that the important thing is to define what best means to you (any of you, I know the OP said reputable), and also relate your definition to the reality of life and business and education here. The best educational experience might give you one answer, the best class for ensuring your passing would surely give you another. Not sure about best in terms of employability, perhaps that may be yet another. I can tell you that the experience in all of these can be quite varied, and the providers who may be considered best in terms of education may be worst in terms of providing a pleasurable experience. For some of us, the improvement in our own skills or our future employability may not be worth the negatives, and there can be a lot of negatives, which turns this subject into a very large and complex one.

Reputable may be a little vague over here, likely the CELTA providers would fill that bill, if you are strictly stating that is your only criteria. If so, I would recommend Apollo over ILA, see my posts in the ILA thread for the reasons why. This was also confirmed by the trainers at the provider I was at (which was not a CELTA provider).

I think the big questions for most people are:

Are they prepared for the serious pressure of the CELTA, and is the pressure worth the marginal additional respect it gets?

Are they aware they likely will not get an A or a B, that they could even not get a pass, and are they willing to accept that?

Are they aware of the well deserved reputation some schools who provide the CELTA have for acting like jerks towards the students?

Are you as a student willing to instead trade the above described experience for a more bottom rung approach, with all the casual incompetence that comes along with it? Knowing of course, that you will pass this one if you just show up and are a native speaker.

In my opinion, there is a void waiting to be filled. If I was quite serious about the additional skills, I would choose Apollo. If I was just seeking the easiest way to get certified I would choose TEFL International. If I could wave a magic wand, I would have a provider who did a better job but did not have the attendant pressure that comes with the CELTA. If there is such a provider, I am not sure who it is. I think the top guys are too full of themselves and the bottom guys would give a cert to anyone who can fog a mirror.

[lakers1988]

I appreciate the help mark and I did see your posts about ILA. I have another question if you don't mind answering. When I am done with the course I am really looking for a job and do you think the best course to take would be TEFL International or the Apollo CELTA? In addition to that I really do want to learn and be a good teacher so once again which one should I take? Also in your opinion how challenging is the CELTA and do you have any tips on how to get a B in the CELTA course?

Thank you for your help I relly appreciate it.

[mark_in_saigon]

If you are trying to maximize what you learn, I think the CELTA is going to be FAR superior to the TEFL International course. If you want the best experience, my information is Apollo is going to treat you with a lot more respect than ILA. This info is from TEFL trainers and from my own experience negotiating with the above CELTA providers, but not taking their courses. I cannot say which CELTA provider will do the better job of the two as far as your actual education, personally I would be more receptive to learning in the one that treated me with respect, but maybe that is just me.

Other points to consider: no one is going to change what you are in a one month program, it is more or less a crash course. In my opinion, the provider I used was primarily focused on churning out graduates, I would like to say I thought their primary focus was on creating the best outcomes, I would be dishonest if I said that though. Regardless, if you do not have a solid foundation upon entering the program, you are not going to build it in one month. The best you can hope for is to learn as much as you can and to pass. The TEFL International course is likely the best choice for people who do not have a relatively high level of skill with English upon entering the program. If already at a higher level of knowledge, then the CELTA is likely the better choice, assuming you can accept the difficulties and the fact you likely will not get an A or a B. The TEFL Int is just pass/fail, and everyone who shows up with any minimal effort is a pass. I think all of these providers will recommend various resources to study previous to your entering the program. The TEFL Int did, but I found that the resource did not really track the program, and so was of limited value for improving my learning experience during the program. Not that it hurt anything. Others may want to weigh in on this, but it seems to me that employers here are more impressed with you having the legal requirement than where it came from. There is so much misleading and confusion going on, I think the difference between the providers is not as important as the impression you make and the other aspects of your background. At the highest levels of EFL (if there is such a thing), perhaps it is an issue. There have been notes that one of these "respected" providers will only hire grads from their own course. What does this prove? That they are seeking the very best, or that they have their own system of discrimination? Honestly, everything we do here is pot luck. We can have a fine old time, despite the constant unprofessionalism we face in so many of our transactions. I am least disappointed when I deal with the least educated and least expensive providers of products. If I get an inferior product, so what, it cost me almost nothing. If I deal with a higher profile organization, and get the same kind of shabby result, it cost me a lot more, and it tends to bother me a lot more. So my philosophy is don't pay top dollar for things, be prepared to do it more than once to get it done properly, expect constant confusion and disappointments, and take advantage of the big positives that are here, mainly the very low cost of labor, labor that can do a very good job if give a proper system to work in. With the TESOL certification, the price is about the same with everyone, and you also have to give a month of your life, so I would not make that decision based on the slight difference in price. If you already have a solid foundation and are quite serious about getting the best education, I would choose the CELTA, and I would investigate it more before signing up with ILA. They could actually run the best program, but I would not sign up with them if they were the only provider in the nation. I am independent, the cert was just another tool for me, not of great importance, so I just took the easy one, which was a disappointment in terms of the experience, and was of average value at best (not superior).

One final thought, if seeking the best grade, you may find that pretending to hang on their every word, and never introducing anything that questions their process or their judgment may help your outcome a lot. I cannot say that is true for every program, but it would not surprise me in the least. These systems tend to take on the management philosophies of the host country over time. "Face" is important to Asians, so they can have something totally incorrect documented, but your position is not to actually question them on it in front of the group. In the program I was in, it was more of a program taught by Asians, managed by Asians with Asian processes, in English. Sometimes the English documentation had been created by a non native, and was clearly incorrect. Some of it was just amusing, some of it was quite disconcerting. It's all pot luck over here. I would suggest you research the way that ILA treats students, I have read some comments that would give me serious pause about entering their program, but that is not first hand info for me. My first hand info dealing with them was all I needed to confirm what I had read. I would have done the Apollo CELTA if timing had worked out, they did not have one happening when I was finally ready, they seemed a lot more willing to treat customers as customers rather than as inferiors. Send these providers serious emails, question them on your concerns, judge them by their responses. You can learn a lot that way. I knew going into it that my provider would pass a warm body. The worst part of the program was they had let one in, and he was dragging down the whole process in a very big way. After about 2/3 of the program, he just dematerialized, so finally we got some relief. But they admitted they had no process for pre testing for suitability, nor did they do anything about addressing the issues that this caused while he was hanging on. The pre test was if you could come up with the money and you were from an English speaking country. CELTA does pre test and reject, which all of the programs should actually do.

[I'm With Stupid]

One major advantage of ILA over Apollo is that CELTA students are given their own facilities. From what I've heard from a friend (worked for Apollo, did the CELTA at ILA) this isn't the case at Apollo, and the CELTA trainees are required to share resources with current teachers. At ILA, the trainees have their own teachers' room, photocopier, OHPs, computers, etc. And of course, they're free to borrow any resources from the teachers room too. I wouldn't underestimate the difference this makes in what is at times a pretty stressful situation. My friend said he felt sorry for the Apollo CELTA trainees as he watched them wait for computers to become free.

[mark_in_saigon]

Most westerners have their own computers these days. While these resources are a consideration, does not seem like a major one to me. I still find the attitude of the trainers and the corporate culture imposed on the employees (which filters down to the students) to be the make or break issue.

While it would be nice if we could choose a program based on the quality of the product, that entire concept is mostly not what this country is all about. You may find parts of what you receive to be quite good, and even a real bargain, (not sure I am talking about a TESOL here, I think they have pretty much maxed out on the price tag on that) but you will also find that mostly you have to wade through oceans of distastefulness to get those parts. Having gotten my feet wet with both of those programs, Apollo's was a lot less distasteful to me.

The way things go here, it would not surprise me if either program (or any others out there) could at any time develop some new huge issue that made the entire situation a total pain. The TEFL I at least will pass almost anyone, which is good in a way, I guess that they are not very professional about it is to be expected. The CELTA programs should be of a higher quality, one would hope they could treat the students with respect, and I still think (or hope) that Apollo does.

I also know of an institution that is cranking out bogus certificates here in HCMC at a very low price. Students actually attend and think they are getting a real certificate, unless someone comes along and tells them the truth. The cert is copied from a legal organization that gives TESOL certs in other countries. It looks fine, and likely is accepted by most schools here. It may actually be the best route. Seems like the govt doesn't care, I guess the school is doing the important stuff like paying its bills.

The school I attended demonstrated they would pass anyone who could pay for the program and would make any kind of effort to follow the process. It mattered not if he was clearly unsuitable for the work, if he paid his money and kept coming to class, he would pass. The main point for them was to get the money, the main point for me was to get the piece of paper. The point could come where the bogus program actually taught you more than the real program. If the bogus program gives a cert that is accepted, is more professional, and costs less than half the price, which is really the best program? I never used to think like that when I lived in the west, but over here, I am beginning to get the point.

[isabel]

Celta and TEFL certs are largely interchangeable and either one meets the visa requirements. You cannot learn much in a month, either way, Both certs function as gatekeepers for hiring purposes.

My objection to Celta? It seems to have an activities based approach that may be useful in an institute or kindergarten, but is just silly at a university level. Almost everyone I know with a Celta loves markers and butcher paper, board slams and other such running around nonsense. Not that the TEFL is so much better, but there is a lot less both arrogance and silliness involved.

Either one is 30 days. Choose your hell. But don't buy the propaganda that the Celta is so superior. It is an equivalent piece of paper needed for a visa.

[Beautiful Loser]

I'm currently enrolled in the CELTA program at Apollo/Hanoi and couldn't be happier with my choice. We have our own resources and a couple of the best trainers a person could hope for. I would think the same could be said for Apollo/HCMC, but don't know for sure.

[Beautiful Loser]

[I'm With Stupid]

[I'm With Stupid]

[I'm With Stupid]

[isabel]

[mark_in_saigon]

A novel approach to this TEFL vs CELTA issue. Clearly, some of the TEFL courses will pass anyone. I think it is safe to say some of the CELTA providers act like jerks. So we are torn between getting a cert of marginally superior reputation while getting humiliated, or wasting a month of our lives plus $1,500 bucks on a class that an 11 year old could pass, wondering if we should have taken the humiliation. I happened to do a hybrid process on this. Yes, I took the bs course, but I had previously taken the TOEIC test. All the VN know what this is. It only costs about 40 bucks and takes a couple of hours. So, you include your report in your portfolio of docs when you are seeking a job. I was shopping myself around a bit, and it was very obvious the employers were far more impressed with my score than they were with the TESOL thing. They acted like: TESOL, either you got it or you don't. Anyway, just be sure not to put the score on your resume as the only note of it, they do not read that closely. Put a color copy of the test results about 3 pages down. It includes your color pic, and they are sure to stop when they see that. They do not seem know or care about the difference between a CELTA and a TESOL. But they all seem to know what 990 on TOEIC means, it is some kind of holy grail to them, right up there with their sacred red seal. So this seems to blow away any doubt about the question of English skills, and they then move into the other issues relating to pay and scheduling and whatnot. It's not that hard to get the perfect score on this if you are a native speaker, I just casually researched the test, but really did not know how to game it until after I had taken it. You can take it a second time if need be, you would have to pay for it again and wait a month. I think people tend to improve 20 or 30 points just from knowing what to expect, I could see that once you figure out the trick to it, you could then improve. You can miss a couple of answers and they still give you the perfect score, I know I missed at least two. I met a VN hiring manager who did not even know that CELTA has the potential for an A or a B, she thought it was all the same. These people are not really able to read that far into your documents, as they either do not understand advanced English (hey, I don't understand ANY VN) or they do not want to struggle their way through it.

Anyone unsure how to go on the TESOL thing may want to try this approach. It can sure enough give you an idea if you are ready for the difficult program. It can confirm you may need to stick with TEFL I. Or, if you do good enough, you may find that it gives you a more impressive result than the perception they have on the TESOL, they probably know that half of all that is bs now anyway, but the TOEIC thing is pretty much incorruptible, even in VN. Not that it teaches you how to teach, but not sure the TESOL does either, it is really just a piece of paper get in the door. The TOEIC score may be a more meaningful piece of information to them, when combined with your TESOL from wherever it came from, maybe even the bogus program that pretends to include the teaching practice but actually does not.

[Beautiful Loser]

The deciding factor for me was the fact that there's only one CELTA, while there's a whole slew of TESOL's. The Trinity TESOL was out of the question, so I researched the CELTA providers in Vietnam and chose Apollo/Hanoi, mainly because I couldn't find anything bad about them written online and I hadn't heard anything negative. I went back to the States and flew into Hanoi, instead of HCMC, just to take the course. I definitely feel like I made the right choice and would recommend others do the same. In fact, I'd rather earn it with these 2 trainers in a hot shanty, with nothing but a chalkboard, than subject myself to that other school's program. I refused to even apply; I won't give them the pleasure. Your lambasting of them was one of my deciding factors for me Mark. Thanks for the warning.