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Vince
Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 559
Location: U.S.
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 Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| No problem. I should have mentioned that I too made it to the personal interview with AEON and wasn't offered a position (this was many years ago). I went elsewhere, was hired, and had a great six years in Japan. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:27 am Post subject: |
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People all over the world typically do not get feedback on rejections. Deal with it. I applied to>30 university jobs here and was never told why I was rejected. No, it's not an Australia thing. Can't you understand that?
You did insult them, even if you feel it was tactful. Realize that, too.
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| You think his time is so precious |
You obviously underestimate what other duties he has. Get over it.
I honestly think you wouldn't be satisfied even with a 3-sentence explanation. It's just my feeling from the way you post. Besides, since we don't know why, try to imagine reasons yourself.
"Uh, Mr. Mix, we didn't hire you because we didn't like the way you..."
or
"Well, Mr. Mix, it was close, very close, but the overriding thing was that... Sorry, but that's just how we had to differentiate between you and the other candidate(s) this time."
I can imagine a retort along the lines of this: "What!? That's just so lame!" But since we don't know the reason, anything we say here is just speculation. We, not just me.
Take it as a learning experience, mix. It will happen again, I guarantee it. |
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mix
Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
People all over the world typically do not get feedback on rejections. Deal with it. I applied to>30 university jobs here and was never told why I was rejected. No, it's not an Australia thing. Can't you understand that?
You did insult them, even if you feel it was tactful. Realize that, too.
| Quote: |
| You think his time is so precious |
You obviously underestimate what other duties he has. Get over it.
I honestly think you wouldn't be satisfied even with a 3-sentence explanation. It's just my feeling from the way you post. Besides, since we don't know why, try to imagine reasons yourself.
"Uh, Mr. Mix, we didn't hire you because we didn't like the way you..."
or
"Well, Mr. Mix, it was close, very close, but the overriding thing was that... Sorry, but that's just how we had to differentiate between you and the other candidate(s) this time."
I can imagine a retort along the lines of this: "What!? That's just so lame!" But since we don't know the reason, anything we say here is just speculation. We, not just me.
Take it as a learning experience, mix. It will happen again, I guarantee it. |
I don't understand the aggressive tone. From my first post you seem to have taken personal insult to every valid criticism I've made of first ECC and then AEON. Other posters have even backed up my same criticisms, yet you find it necessary to continue to turn it into personal jabs at me. I shouldn't be too surprised, there seems to be an aggressive tone in a lot of posts on gaijinpot from the 'lifer gaijin' types toward any people seeking advice on teaching gigs in Japan, but I thought this forum was more constructive.
Firstly, yes I have gotten over it. Rejection hurts, but I managed to bounce back and pass the ECC interview. Secondly, I didn't link the email so don't assume it was as insulting as you think. Thirdly, maybe I do underestimate how busy he is, maybe you overestimate how busy he is. But how busy you are doesn't excuse what I, and Australia (I can assure you it's the norm here), consider common business courtesy. Lastly, I absolutely would have taken the criticism on the chin, I always have in the past. All I wanted was for some constructive feedback to work on for future interviews. Like most of the applicants, I had little teaching experience and would have appreciated some feedback as to where I fell down and areas to improve my presentation. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| mix wrote: |
| Thirdly, maybe I do underestimate how busy he is, maybe you overestimate how busy he is. |
Doubtful. You really haven't done any research about Japan or its work culture, have you.
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But how busy you are doesn't excuse what I, and Australia (I can assure you it's the norm here), consider common business courtesy.
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You know, I met quite a few Australians like you (i.e. all but one of roughly 20.5 of them) when I was working on a uni campus in China. They could never get over the fact that they shouldn't expect Australian customs to be observed abroad or by foreign companies. Most of them didn't last long and most of the ones that tried were miserable and couldn't understand why me and the other foreigners tended to avoid them (they, too, couldn't understand that no matter how you word things, an insult is still an insult and therefore always offensive). Although I'm quite interested in how you think that calling someone a "lazybum" can be worded tactfully.
And Glenski is right, I've lived and worked in many countries and it is not common courtesy for employers to give feedback. Any employer that does is doing you a favour because they owe you nothing (not sure why you seem to have this strange sense of entitlement).
And the other problem (that you seem to have completely ignored in my previous post) recruiters for big companies rarely make the final hiring decisions and may not know why somebody was rejected by HQ.
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| Like most of the applicants, I had little teaching experience and would have appreciated some feedback as to where I fell down and areas to improve my presentation. |
And eventhough it isn't common practice to give feedback in Japan (many companies tell you outright that it is not possible to give personal feedback to failed apps due to the number of applications they have to deal with) if you had written something like this in your email as opposed to insulting the guy and his company, he might have been willing to go the extra mile to get you some info, especially if you were a likeable person during the interview. |
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mix
Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| mix wrote: |
| Thirdly, maybe I do underestimate how busy he is, maybe you overestimate how busy he is. |
Doubtful. You really haven't done any research about Japan or its work culture, have you.
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But how busy you are doesn't excuse what I, and Australia (I can assure you it's the norm here), consider common business courtesy.
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You know, I met quite a few Australians like you (i.e. all but one of roughly 20.5 of them) when I was working on a uni campus in China. They could never get over the fact that they shouldn't expect Australian customs to be observed abroad or by foreign companies. Most of them didn't last long and most of the ones that tried were miserable and couldn't understand why me and the other foreigners tended to avoid them (they, too, couldn't understand that no matter how you word things, an insult is still an insult and therefore always offensive). Although I'm quite interested in how you think that calling someone a "lazybum" can be worded tactfully.
And Glenski is right, I've lived and worked in many countries and it is not common courtesy for employers to give feedback. Any employer that does is doing you a favour because they owe you nothing (not sure why you seem to have this strange sense of entitlement).
And the other problem (that you seem to have completely ignored in my previous post) recruiters for big companies rarely make the final hiring decisions and may not know why somebody was rejected by HQ.
| Quote: |
| Like most of the applicants, I had little teaching experience and would have appreciated some feedback as to where I fell down and areas to improve my presentation. |
And eventhough it isn't common practice to give feedback in Japan (many companies tell you outright that it is not possible to give personal feedback to failed apps due to the number of applications they have to deal with) if you had written something like this in your email as opposed to insulting the guy and his company, he might have been willing to go the extra mile to get you some info, especially if you were a likeable person during the interview. |
I don't expect them to observe Australian customs in Japan. They choose to recruit in Australia though, so I'd expect they would follow Australian practices if they wanted to maintain a decent reputation. Awesome generalisation of Australians by the way. If the 'other foreigners' you mentioned were as humourless as you, I doubt they cared much that you avoided them.
Don't quote the "lazy bum" comment, I explicitly said that I didn't say that. I was merely using an exaggerated paraphrase. You're making way too many assumptions about this email. I regret even bringing it up.
EDIT: Forgot the last bit. My first reply to the rejection email was exactly that, a polite request for feedback. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Mix,
You know, calling people names here (like "humorless" or "lifer gaijin") is not going to score you any points with anyone on the forum. With the market as competitive as it is, you will need all the points you can get. Insulting people here won't isolate you from only those you insult, but pretty much everyone else reading this. You should really take care of how you write. Besides, in case you've missed this...
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=55284
You can defend your complaint letter all you want, even though you used words like "angry" and "lazy bum" initially. Unless we see what you actually wrote, it's your interpretation over ours based solely on what you wrote here. Please show it or stop defending and rephrasing it, ok?
Now, as to me defending AEON or ECC, you really should read things more carefully. I have explained as clearly as possible (and others have concurred) that what you saw was not the norm. Despite repeated explanations along those lines, your responses have not shown a very reasonable attitude.
Personal jabs at you? I have tried to be patient and understanding, but your remarks to me (and others) show that you really don't understand how you appear to people here and to the interviewer. Written text is sometimes hard to make one's point clear, but I think it's safe to say that you just don't see the reality of the situation, even though more than one of us "lifer gaijin" has pointed things out. Your criticisms of ECC have not always been valid.
| Quote: |
| I thought this forum was more constructive. |
You just don't see it. That is really sad now that you have been accepted at a job here. I can only suggest that you open your eyes to the international world more after you arrive. As for not being "constructive", let's see just my own posts (dark red are direct quotes):
1. It's almost September, which means you have a very slight chance of getting some rare job for the October start date. Otherwise, after that there is darned little opening until spring (with interviews in Feb/March). Even if you see ALT jobs advertised now, they will likely be for April start dates. This was my very first post!
2. Want something short-term? About all that's left is Westgate Corp., but I don't know what their hiring schedule is. As constructive as it gets. Not a peep whether you followed up on that, though.
3. Otherwise, be patient like the other 99% of newcomers. It's pretty crowded here. Sage advice considering the market here, don't you think?
4. You said they weren't being "honest", and I pointed out where they were.
5. I pointed out that there have been other posted threads about such delays from employers here on this very web site. Not sure if you followed up on that.
6. You mentioned an incorrect filing date for JET applications, and I pointed out the correct date and even gave you a link to follow. Seems pretty constructive to me.
7. You wrote of your "angry email" and lack of feedback. I said angry letters will do that. Resist the urge. Nothing aggressive in that. Purely constructive.
8. After you tried defending your statement about calling the interviewer a lazy bum, I constructively advised the following: Any remarks, and I mean any that are directed to the interviewer in a personal nature are grounds for immediately refusal to hire, let alone refusal to respond. I will point out what I thought was constructive and clear: be very careful about how you communicate with interviewers!
9. I asked you to reflect on what took place in the interview so that you might not make the same mistakes in the future (Did you ever reflect on the interview and try to determine what small point might have been your downfall? Most people do, and if they come up with nothing, it's because the reason is something they weren't aware of. ). All constructive, I thought.
10. Even in my exasperated (not intentionally aggressive) post, I tried pointing out a valuable lesson in life with regards to interviews, even rejections: Take it as a learning experience, mix. It will happen again, I guarantee it.
So, this is where we are. Enjoy your life at ECC or wherever you end up. Keep your eyes open for the flaws that Japan has to offer you. Don't be surprised, though, if some people choose not to come to your rescue if you exhibit similar behavior as here. You've probably burned more bridges than with just the interviewer. I wish you well. |
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mix
Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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Appreciate the post glenski. I can only say that I felt I was being talked down to from the tone of your posts and others, hence my reaction. The mods can feel free to delete my posts if they think they're offensive.
All I can say is that I'm fully committed to going through with teaching in Japan and learning the language, whether it be with ECC, JET or someone else. I've put a huge amount of effort to get to the point where I am now and I think I'm strong enough to be able to cope with any speed bumps that arise. |
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cat mother
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| mix wrote: |
| I'm fully committed to going through with teaching in Japan and learning the language |
Something just occurred to me while reading this thread. When I was helping hire new teachers at my previous job, we immediately crossed off all applicants who during their interviews went on about how fascinated they were with Japan, how committed they were to learning the language, loved the culture and knew oh-so-many kanji, etc, etc.
We wanted people to come and work for us, not fanboys/fangirls who made it clear they would spend their every waking hour studying Japanese, and possibly even practicing their Japanese with our students.
If there was one specific applicant profile we avoided like the plague, that was definitely it. |
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Vince
Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 559
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| cat mother wrote: |
| When I was helping hire new teachers at my previous job, we immediately crossed off all applicants who during their interviews went on about how fascinated they were with Japan, how committed they were to learning the language, loved the culture and knew oh-so-many kanji, etc, etc. |
It's amazing how many people consider their fondness of Japanese culture to be a qualification. It might say something about the person's initial enthusiasm, but many of us have seen how hard these people are crushed when the realities of Japan knock them out of their honeymoon phase.
There's nothing wrong with studying some Japanese and getting an intro to the culture. Just keep in mind that the interview is about whether the applicant can be the kind of teacher they need, not about how the applicant plans to indulge his interests and hobbies. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| cat mother wrote: |
| mix wrote: |
| I'm fully committed to going through with teaching in Japan and learning the language |
Something just occurred to me while reading this thread. When I was helping hire new teachers at my previous job, we immediately crossed off all applicants who during their interviews went on about how fascinated they were with Japan, how committed they were to learning the language, loved the culture and knew oh-so-many kanji, etc, etc.
We wanted people to come and work for us, not fanboys/fangirls who made it clear they would spend their every waking hour studying Japanese, and possibly even practicing their Japanese with our students.
If there was one specific applicant profile we avoided like the plague, that was definitely it. |
Well that helps explain why so many Eikaiwa teachers manage to never learn any Japanese  You guys filtered them out. |
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deadzenpoet
Joined: 06 Aug 2010
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| I think cat mothers advice is good and kind of clarifies some indecisiveness in regards to how to approach an essay or interview. I think stressing the love of Japan might have worked in the old Nova days but I'm not so sure now. |
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dynastar
Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| mix wrote: |
| Appreciate the post glenski. I can only say that I felt I was being talked down to from the tone of your posts and others, hence my reaction. The mods can feel free to delete my posts if they think they're offensive. |
Don't worry mix, ALL of Glenski's posts have this feel to them -_- |
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