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deadlift
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 267
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 Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| LettersAthruZ wrote: |
There are things that I have learned over the years here....one of thee most important is - THEE moment that you hear a Vietnamese tell you "Ah....yes, yes, but you must be flexible" - do not walk away....RUN AWAY AS FAST AS YOU CAN!!!! |
Absolutely. I'd only add that if this line comes from some Western sock-puppet, you should run twice as fast. |
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snollygoster
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:00 am Post subject: Language Link Hanoi |
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Surprising story- I have worked at LL Hanoi, and although it was not the hottest gig in town, I never had a problem, and they paid exactly as they promised during negotiations.
The "old" recruitment manager is gone now to greener pastures, and to be honest, he was very straight down the line- at least with me. Therein may lie the problem- New blood in recruiting. |
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sigmoid
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1276
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Well, if a school has a recruitment manager it would seem to indicate that they have difficulty finding teachers locally.
In my opinion, VN will soon become/is becoming the new Korea as they regulate themselves out of the market.
Schools there will need their own recruitment managers like LL or will have to rely on recruiting companies who can "persuade" teachers with "hot new jobs". |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| DNK wrote: |
heh, forgive me if the $5K figure was just meant to scare off more newcomers, but that seems ridiculously high, even if you arrive two weeks before Tet.
You can scratch out a living in HCM for like $500/mo at the minimum (not a fun, filling, remotely enjoyable month, but it works). Who is going to take 10 months to land a job? At most, it should take a month between when you start looking and when you have enough income to cover most of your expenses (if you put yourself into it).
I'd say all you really need is 3mo expenses plus airfare out to be comfortable coming over, and that's under half of the $5K figure...
That said, definitely don't come over with $200 in your pocket or something like that. |
Hmmmm.... first time anyone here has ever alluded to me wanting to scare off potential new teachers from coming to Vietnam, but be that as it may  .
The $5,000 figure is what I personally believe to be appropriate and, of course, others can disagree. Maybe I'm becoming too cautious as I am getting older  . Having said that I've worked in quite a few foreign countries and, when I was younger, I've been trapped more than a few times in working horrible jobs (replete with terrible, lying bosses and awful pay). I would have dearly, dearly loved to have been able to tell them where they could stick their job/s but I simply couldn't afford to as I was literally living pay cheque-to-pay cheque. You can work, scrimp and save your way out of it [and I did], but I'd prefer not to have to go through that again.
Besides, I don't think $5,000 to establish yourself in a new country, (where you don't know anybody, you don't speak the language, you have no job security and no safety net) is that much. If you don't use all of the five grand (and you shouldn't have to) - great! Use it some other time. But it's nice to know that it is there and moving to a foreign country, away from friends and family, can be stressful enough (for some people more than others). Why make it harder for yourself?
Also when you first move to a new place, there's invariably start-up costs. For example, paying a month's rent in advance (sometimes two) plus a month's bond is not uncommon here and that can work out to be a fairly substantial chunk of money. Also, for example, there's often furniture or things for the kitchen that need to be purchased and these sort of things add up. Ditto for the costs associated with getting your work visa processed (some schools pay for it, some don't). Plus you should be making it a point to socialise a fair bit when you first get here so you can make new friends. Additionally, like mark_in_saigon said, you should be prepared for the unexpected.
You are right in saying that people can "scratch out a living" on $500 a month and, if someone wants to do that, then good luck to them. I've done similar things like this before (not here but elsewhere) and, although it didn't kill me, it kind of sucked and I have no intention of ever doing it again. Like I said before, money does not buy happiness but, some of the things it can do, is to provide options, stability and independence  . |
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Andy123
Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 206
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| 1st SGT Welsh I totally agree with your statement. Always have a plan B (money in the bank) or rich parents. |
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DNK
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 236
Location: the South
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:14 am Post subject: |
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That's fine, yes, I agree having more money is good. Why not $15K, though?
Start up costs: you can find apartments for 1mo contracts without deposits. You can find 3mo contracts with just a 1mo deposit and just the 1st month paid ($600-700). That takes some looking, but until then there's a monthly rate at a cheap hotel to get you through (cheaply). I'm not sure how much of a table you want for your kitchen, but you can get something basic for, well, a drop in a $2.5K bucket. Not much else in startup costs.
What's the statistic, the vast majority of Americans can't come up with $2K in an emergency right now? Something like that. Living paycheck-to-paycheck for a few months here and then getting on sound financial standing is rough, but so is living under your paychecks in America while you wait tables at 30hrs/wk trying to string a life together in the process. A lot of people don't have the option of saving $5K in full, nor might they want to spend the time to get their savings that high if it means another 6-12 months in retail/service hell beyond what it'd take to get to $2500.
Yeah, if you're an adult with sound finances already, $5K, why not, it's a good idea. I came with $6K plus the return ticket. It was a good thing to have. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| DNK wrote: |
| Why not $15K, though?. |
Because $5,000 is ample and can allow for a relatively non-stressful transition to Vietnam.
| DNK wrote: |
Start up costs: you can find apartments for 1mo contracts without deposits. You can find 3mo contracts with just a 1mo deposit and just the 1st month paid ($600-700). That takes some looking, but until then there's a monthly rate at a cheap hotel to get you through (cheaply). I'm not sure how much of a table you want for your kitchen, but you can get something basic for, well, a drop in a $2.5K bucket. Not much else in startup costs.
What's the statistic, the vast majority of Americans can't come up with $2K in an emergency right now? Something like that. Living paycheck-to-paycheck for a few months here and then getting on sound financial standing is rough, but so is living under your paychecks in America while you wait tables at 30hrs/wk trying to string a life together in the process. A lot of people don't have the option of saving $5K in full, nor might they want to spend the time to get their savings that high if it means another 6-12 months in retail/service hell beyond what it'd take to get to $2500. |
It can be partly savings or partly credit cards or whatever. All I am saying is that it is a good idea to have access to the money, in case you need it. I acknowledged before that you can do it with less!
You mentioned having to do crummy jobs in your home country and, to be honest, I'd much rather do a crummy job in America, Australia, the UK etc than have to work a crummy job here. At least in your home country you are pretty much guaranteed that you are going to get paid at the end of the month. I am not sure I would say the same thing about Vietnam. If you have OK qualifications and access to funds, you can afford to be choosy.
| DNK wrote: |
| Yeah, if you're an adult with sound finances already, $5K, why not, it's a good idea. I came with $6K plus the return ticket. It was a good thing to have. |
Yes, it is "good thing to have" and that's all I've been saying. I don't know if you've ever relocated to a foreign country without 'breathing room' money DNK, but I have done it a few times and I'm in no hurry to give a repeat performance.
I have a friend, who I love to bits and who I did my CELTA with. Anyway she arrived in Vietnam with not that much money (don't know the exact figure, but I guess it would probably have been a couple of grand). She certainly wasn't in a position where she was going to become homeles, but, at the beginning, she didn't really have enough to feel comfortable either.
After the CELTA, I decided to unwind a bit and go away for a week travelling with some other people I met on the course to check out a bit of the country. She stayed in Hanoi. Until I got my apartment, I rented a nice room in a nice guesthouse in a good location. She stayed in a 'so-so' room in a 'so-so' guesthouse in a not-so-good-location. She applied to every job she could and was desperate to hear back from them. I sent out a few CVs to the better schools but ended up deciding to wait it out until there was a position available at ACET. She ended taking a job at a language mill where, for the first few months, she was begging for extra hours. I went out a lot and met new people and made new friends. She stayed mostly in her room and played her guitar, read and surfed the internet. When Tet arrived, I went to Borneo for a lovely holiday with a friend. She was still just getting established, and still didn't have much money (she only been working for a few months) so she ended up staying in VN for her first holiday.
People can come over here with six, five, four, three, two, one grand or whatever and look for work. Hell, they can rock up with one $20 note, a t-shirt and one pair of underpants and not plan to change any of them for all I care. They are adults and have to work these things out for themselves. I personally think, for the reasons I've given, that $5,000 is a 'safe' figure and, if others disagree, no problem . |
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haller_79
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:48 am Post subject: |
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Let's see - rent in HCMC - $400 pcm (not too much doorknocking required to find something at that price).
Food and drink - about $10 -$15 a day, lets say $15 so we're comfortable.
Entertainment obviously depends on the individual but let's say $50 a week for a couple of decent nights per week and the rest are quieter while we're looking for work.
Motorbike hire - let's say $5 a day
So after one month that's a total of $1160. You could go without work for three months and only have racked up about $3,500 - and if you haven't found a job after three months then I'd take it as a sign.
Yes money's good - if I had some I'd probably settle in the Carribean, watch cricket while sipping on a daquiri and have a whole bunch of hot West Indian women around me, but something tells me I'm not the only *beep* thinking along those lines. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| haller_79 wrote: |
Let's see - rent in HCMC - $400 pcm (not too much doorknocking required to find something at that price).
Food and drink - about $10 -$15 a day, lets say $15 so we're comfortable.
Entertainment obviously depends on the individual but let's say $50 a week for a couple of decent nights per week and the rest are quieter while we're looking for work.
Motorbike hire - let's say $5 a day
So after one month that's a total of $1160. You could go without work for three months and only have racked up about $3,500 - and if you haven't found a job after three months then I'd take it as a sign. |
I don't really take issue with those numbers. So am I right in assuming that you think $3,500 is sufficient? If so, fair enough, but I'll stick with the $5,000. This is simply because I think it can give the potential new teacher two bites of the cherry. I'll bounce a hypothetical off you.
Let's assume 'Teacher A' and 'Teacher B' both arrive in Vietnam on the same day. TA has access to $5,000 while TB has $3,500. After they have being here for one and a half months (not a substantial time IMHO), they both decide that Vietnam is not for them. I could easily say that they suffered the devastating effects of a serious motorcyle accident or dengue fever (occurrences that happen here all the time) but, let's just keep it simple. TA and TB both think Vietnam is terrible and they hate being here and desperately want to go to teach in (let's say) China instead. They have both spent in VN, based on your calculations, $1740. TA has $3260 left while TB has $1760.
If I was TA would I give China a go with $3260? Yes, I would. If I was TB would I start again from scratch and relocate to China on $1760? Nope and, for me, that's the rub as I see it. With $5,000 you still have other options if things don't work out. Don't forget, a lot worse can happen to you here than just deciding you don't like the place and changing your mind about whether you want to live here.
Like I've said, people can come over here with as much, or as little, money as they think they'll need and I hope it works out for them. Having said that I honestly don't regard having access to $5,000 to relocate to a new country as a particularly hefty sum and, if anything, I see it as quite a sensible figure. |
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I'm With Stupid
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I've worked for Language Link in Saigon, and they were fine. Just part-time though, and I was already in the country, so all of the details were agreed face-to-face. |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Like I've said, people can come over here with as much, or as little, money as they think they'll need and I hope it works out for them. Having said that I honestly don't regard having access to $5,000 to relocate to a new country as a particularly hefty sum and, if anything, I see it as quite a sensible figure. |
I think the real wild card here is medical issues, either illness or injury. I had the sudden onset of a life threatening organ failure, no time to leave the country. Others have had accidents here, which are quite easy to have. The resulting costs and loss of income can make the $5,000 quite realistic. However, lots of people just cannot get that far ahead, here or in the west, and so they are just living on faith that nothing bad will happen. I have been there too, as most of us have. If that is your profile, then not much you can do about that. If you have the freedom to plan and organize and control your life a bit more, then the $5,000 number sounds pretty good to me. Of course, being able to get grandma to western union the money over is an acceptable substitute. My grandma is gone, but her money lives on, and so, well, thanks for the ride grandma. I hope you had at least half as much fun as you have helped me have. |
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generalgiap
Joined: 03 Sep 2011
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyone have a similar problem? I was offered a job at Language Link in Hanoi. They offered me full time work at a decent pay rate. When I arrived in Hanoi, after spending a lot of money on airfare, hotels and meals, the story changed. Full time work became possibly part time and the pay was far less than they mentioned. This type of deception is to be considered when applying to any school from another country. |
I have worked at LL and have many friends who currently work there or have worked at LL. In addition, the reputable schools in HCMC who recruit from abroad , including LL, provide employment contracts, which are signed by both parties. I have never heard of anyone who has not been treated fairly at LL. That does not mean that it has never happened. However, lets use logic and common sense to determine if this really happened.
Please explain why anyone would travel around the world without a signed contract, would anyone move from California to NewYork etc without a contract?! The answer is nobody unless they dont want a contract. An email is not a contract, far from it and LL and other reptutable schools would not be able to hire from abroad unless they provided a contract. Therefore, one can only blame themselves if they move to another country without some kind of employment contract.
I do not work at LL but I suspect this is nothing more than an attack on LL which is a reputable EFL school in Vietnam.
I and possibly others would like to see the email, please post it.
Thanks. |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| I have never heard of anyone who has not been treated fairly at LL. |
I pretty much agree with almost all of that post. I would say though, it is hard for me to conceive of any of these schools who do not treat some of their teachers or staff unfairly from time to time. Employment in VN is not at all like the west. Corruption, greed, discrimination, abuse, lies, they are all central features. Yes, we can make 10 times the wage (or more) of the natives for speaking our native language (which in itself is probably unfair, and probably contributes to their willingness to treat us unfairly in return).
I would also say that going to VN WITH a contract is is of less value than going to VN based on your personal skills, qualifications, research, desire and resources. If you know what you are doing, you will be okay. If you don't, a contract is not going to give you much help. Do a search on broken contracts here, you will likely find confirmation of that. I wonder how many of us found that their very first job here was just the right one, and stuck with it for long term? If you are truly qualified, there is work for you, but you are not able to know which organization is really a good fit for you from the other side of the world. It is fine to hop around a bit here, you learn a lot, quickly, no need to tie yourself down to the first place that makes you an offer.
There can be some good reasons to live and work here. In my opinion, nice people who are serious about helping others (nice, dedicated teachers) are going to be disappointed, unless they are as long suffering as Mother Theresa. Mostly we have to do our best, put up with the reality, and enjoy the rewards that are usually not directly related to our work. Those who do not understand the realities of this are setting themselves up for a disappointment, in my opinion. |
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snollygoster
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:14 am Post subject: Well said |
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Well said Mark, and pretty much "on the money".
Dont come here to help the poor and save the wretched-you will be disappointed- come here with confidence in your own ability to do what you do, and be strong in the conviction they need you.
No teacher-no school!
Put the crap aside-live with it, and if you give a fair deal, you will (usually) get a fair deal back, but dont expect it to be all sweet and truthful like in the west- It just isnt.
I know when I negotiate with even some of my "friends" who run schools, that they are lying and exaggerating- Its just part of the local culture- Look them straight in the eye, laugh, tell them they are talking bullshit, and decide if you can afford to deal with what they offer. They WILL appreciate your understanding of the local scene, and some of my best friends in Vietnam are school owners who tried to shaft me in the beginning, but I just laughed at them.
Be flexible, and always have a plan B- Also, you need $5,000 (or access to it) to negotiate from a position of strength. If you dont have that- dont come- you are a victim.
Put yourself in the position of strength so you can laugh at their offers- they will laugh too, and see you know what you are about and then make their serious offer. (Which they may or may not honor completely). Roll with the flow and you will enjoy Vietnam. |
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haller_79
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| Actually you can help the poor and disadvantaged in Vietnam, for example Antipodeans Abroad has a program where you can help at a primary school for disabled kids in Hanoi, and no doubt there are plenty of other such programs - although that reality obviously doesn't suit the agenda of your post. |
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