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isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
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 Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Women in the countryside |
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| snollygoster wrote: |
Right CT: When the chips are down, the WOMAN holds the real power, but she allows the man to put up his front. I am talking about the normal Viet family, not the "hero drivers" and the drunks from the city in their Mercedes benz- Party pretty boys.
I have a Viet wife, and she is from the countryside. Her mum is just a lovely person who asks for nothing, and my wife is also a lovely woman who, although acknowledging that her life has been made more comfortable by hitching up with a "tay", also expects nothing.
In general, Viet men are a useless lot (of course there are exceptions), and if it wasn't for the fact their women are strong and are the real head of the house hold, I doubt the men could survive.
I spent a lot of time in the countryside, and I certainly observed the power of women. They are what I would call "quiet achievers" who generally "allow" their men folk to be in control, or at least put on a show of being in control. A "face" issue.
If only the women would step out into the light, and stop letting their men folk get away with this, Vietnam would progress in leaps and bounds.
Can you imagine a woman President? Viet men would cringe, but I would just love to see it. It would give me the confidence to live in Vietnam, knowing that party line decisions would be made on practical lines instead of on blurred personal "control" issues. |
There is so much going on here. The part about the men is most revealing. Is this what you think? Pretty big brush you have there. |
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snollygoster
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:29 am Post subject: I think |
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Yes, thats what I think.
However, as the OPs question was pretty broad, answers have to be painted with a broad brush.
90 m People living in a country the size of a shoe box are bound to have many local differences, so the broad brush does injustice to some, of course.
Numerous different cultural perspectives also.
The question is almost like asking "What are white people like?" |
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Homeroamer
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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Snollygoster, I appreciate your perspective on gender roles in your replies. However, the question was directed more towards navigating social interactions (for a foreigner) within the social and cultural norms of the country, hence the focus on propriety with regard to eye contact, greetings, humor, etc. The question was intentionally broad so as to open a more broad discussion that was not limited to the admittedly little I know about Viet culture.
Given your experience (and the experiences of all in this forum), I'm certain that we could continue to productively illuminate more on this wide topic. |
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isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:41 am Post subject: |
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"In general, Viet men are a useless lot (of course there are exceptions), and if it wasn't for the fact their women are strong and are the real head of the house hold, I doubt the men could survive."
At this moment, on my block in one of the best districts in town, there are around 40-50 of these "useless" guys living in hammocks in shanties, working 7 days a week on construction, and sending their meager earnings back for the family.
Gender equality seems to exist at the bottom of the food chain here. I see women and men working side by side on the construction projects I mentioned above. Women collect trash on their bicycles or on foot.
I expect gender equality of a sort will filter up with education. Once enough women get university educations and move to the cities, they will not have such limited options. Marrying a westerner (or Korean) won't be a career aspiration for women then- it will become a matter of choice. (That will be good news for the westerners who are married to Asian women, by the way, because the accusing looks will be less prevalent). In Korea and Japan, many women opt to be single and have a career rather than deal with the strong lingering patriarchy in their countries. As development happens here, I suspect we will see the same.
Culture is a complicated thing to understand. It is best to simply accept that over-stereotyping, especially with negative assumptions, is best avoided. |
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toiyeuthitmeo
Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 213
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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more tidbits...
eye contact is not shunned here. firm handshakes, however, are still catching on.
amongst a portion of vn males, it is fashionable to have long fingernails, amongst several other affectations that are taken by some to assign the average vn male as being a bit feminine. not saying i agree or generalize this to a wide truth, but it's been opined by more than a few visitors over my years here.
touching of the head, although hardly the massive affront it is made out to be in some travel books, is still not a good idea, as is the wearing of shoes in most vn households.
if invited for a meal in a vn household, know that it's still quite common to sit on the floor for the meal, which for the unlimber, creaky, or large of carriage, can be quite a pain. hosts are usually pretty understanding of your need to get up and walk the feeling back into your legs every now and then.
in vietnam, if you are "invited" somewhere, whether for drinks, to a meal, or some entertainment, it almost always means that the person inviting is going to insist on paying for the activity. The "invitation" is a big deal, don't insist on paying or splitting the bill, it will be seen as an insult. Rather, make it clear that NEXT TIME, we will share, or next time, you'll invite them. Then stick to your word, you'll lose friends quickly if you fail to reciprocate hospitality frequently. |
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Homeroamer
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| toiyeuthitmeo, Thanks much for the tidbits! |
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CThomas
Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 380
Location: HCMC, Vietnam
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| toiyeuthitmeo wrote: |
more tidbits...
if invited for a meal in a vn household, know that it's still quite common to sit on the floor for the meal, which for the unlimber, creaky, or large of carriage, can be quite a pain. hosts are usually pretty understanding of your need to get up and walk the feeling back into your legs every now and then.
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This. If you're in this category, find a spot near a wall and use it to prop up your back. It's worth the effort: furniture does not a good meal make. |
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bludevil96
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| toiyeuthitmeo wrote: |
more tidbits...
eye contact is not shunned here. firm handshakes, however, are still catching on.
amongst a portion of vn males, it is fashionable to have long fingernails, amongst several other affectations that are taken by some to assign the average vn male as being a bit feminine. not saying i agree or generalize this to a wide truth, but it's been opined by more than a few visitors over my years here.
touching of the head, although hardly the massive affront it is made out to be in some travel books, is still not a good idea, as is the wearing of shoes in most vn households.
if invited for a meal in a vn household, know that it's still quite common to sit on the floor for the meal, which for the unlimber, creaky, or large of carriage, can be quite a pain. hosts are usually pretty understanding of your need to get up and walk the feeling back into your legs every now and then.
in vietnam, if you are "invited" somewhere, whether for drinks, to a meal, or some entertainment, it almost always means that the person inviting is going to insist on paying for the activity. The "invitation" is a big deal, don't insist on paying or splitting the bill, it will be seen as an insult. Rather, make it clear that NEXT TIME, we will share, or next time, you'll invite them. Then stick to your word, you'll lose friends quickly if you fail to reciprocate hospitality frequently. |
The finger nail thingy has to do with controlling a certain amount of fate in your life such as luck. A fortune teller or someone who specializes in a human almanac (book of fate), similar to a farmer's almanac, will tell the person to leave a certain nail on their hand to grow longer than the rest as a way to ward off evil, attain luck, etc.. Most of the time the nail is the thumbs or the pinky. The same goes for things like how you should grow your hair or manipulating your eyebrows (I wonder how this would work out for those unibrow people). This sh_t comes from the wisdom of the Chinese of course but Vietnamese culture is highly influenced by the Chinese.
As for the "head", it depends on which person's head. You should never, ever, and I repeat, never touch an elder's head. Again, things like this has more to do with age and your relationship to the other person but when it comes to senior citizens, beware of this. It's very highly disrespectful. In general, don't touch the head of the person who is obviously older than you.
The Vietnamese would have an even greater culture if they could get rid of this Chinese influence. For example, if you go into a really dirty, sometimes decrepit pigsty that is an eatery with bones and trash scattered everywhere, it's there on purpose. Somehow cleaning up in midstream or immediately would disrupt the flow of luck (feng sui?). A lot of times, the place might look like it's going to crumble at any second and you would think that the owners are too cheap to fix up the place but it's not true, IF, the business has been successful the way it is. Renovating or knocking it down for a new restaurant would risk anger of the "luck" god. It's entirely possible for them to "fix" this problem but it has to be done on a certain date i.e. year, month, and between a certain hours that would correlate with the age of the owner. Look closely in these places and you will see Chinese writings and worship stuff that's entirely Chinese. This will tell you that the owner/establishment is either Chinese or Chinese-Vietnamese.
The Chinese are very much like the Jews in a sense that they don't consider themselves anything else but Chinese even though they are second, 3rd or 4th generations in another country. They stick together like glue everywhere they have migrated. The Chinese businesses will only hire other Chinese, even if the business serves other Asian communities like Vietnamese or Thais. I've seen this in the U.S. with the District 5 Chinese-Vietnamese who came to the U.S. and setup a grocery store in a predominantly Vietnamese community; not one full-blooded Vietnamese were hired out of a hundred staff.
The Chinese part is a little off-topic so my apology to the OP but I thought it has a little relevancy as to how the thought process of current Vietnamese had derived. |
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toiyeuthitmeo
Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 213
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Very interesting info buledevil. Just one thing, I think those beliefs, while definitely Sino-influenced as you well note, apply to many non Chinese Kinh Vietnamese, too. I've been to far, far too many ramshackle yet successful restaurants that seem as if they are just a small remodel or scrub down away from attaining a pleasant ambience, no doubt for the beliefs you noted, and they can't all be Sino-Viet, right?
One more thing, are the rats lucky, too ?  |
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