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Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> China (Job-related Posts Only)

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bluetortilla

Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 815
Location: Henan

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:16 am Post subject:

igorG wrote:

But be careful about the job advertising sites and forums. They more often aren't what they appear to be. Jobs seem to be mostly advertised when few want to accept them. Then, you don't want to be pimped. Having your portfolio handed over to too many may not be the best idea. Also, you may be "busy busy busy" if too many lackies contact you. Work on direct employer contacts, and, perhaps, have someone who speaks the language assisting you.

Appreciated but a little difficult for someone like me to understand. When you say they are often not what they appear to be, what do you mean? You do get a contract to sign, right? Don't they have to live up to that contract? I can see the lodgings being filthy or the school you eventually wind up in trying to make you do all kinds of extra work. I guess you just cut the knot then.

By pimping, do you mean that agencies share your info with each other? Aren't they competing?

I like the idea of direct hires very much, but I have no idea about how China works. I plan to apply to some uni's, but we'll see.

Coming from 20 years of EFL in Japan, I know nothing about China- how it works, what to watch out for, etc. So from my point of view really the only way I can see getting a foothold is probably through an agency. That you'd have to start with a less than popular job shouldn't surprise, but surely if you're careful it should be decent enough, shouldn't it? I just received an Employment Package from an agency that looks good to me. I'd be grateful if anyone would be willing to look it over.

dean_a_jones

Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:29 am Post subject:

Am happy to give you an opinion on it if you want to send it to me via PM.

Miles Smiles

Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:27 pm Post subject:

I recognize two names from two of the schools on that website and I can verify that they are NOT recruiters. The website could be a co-op. For non-teaching jobs in the private sector, try http://english.zhaopin.com/

bluetortilla

Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 815
Location: Henan

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:44 pm Post subject:

Miles Smiles wrote:

I recognize two names from two of the schools on that website and I can verify that they are NOT recruiters. The website could be a co-op.

For non-teaching jobs in the private sector, try

http://english.zhaopin.com/

Sir, what two schools are you talking about? How can a school be a recruiter? A recruiter would introduce you to a school. What's the difference between that and an agency, if any? What is a co-op? Sorry for all the Q's, but your post is confusing for me.

If we can't trust the people advertising on the China Job Board (shouldn't they be approved by this web site?), then where do we go?

I find this all slightly ridiculous. No one is going to get rich off of TESOL in Asia. People (meaning shady recruiters) can really be scrounges.

dean_a_jones

Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:55 pm Post subject:

bluetortilla wrote:

If we can't trust the people advertising on the China Job Board (shouldn't they be approved by this web site?), then where do we go?

I hate to be a cynic, but I would not trust any job advertisements, promises, recruiters, FAOs, even teachers the school may put you in contact with, people on forums who claim they worked for a school and it was awful/great etc. When looking at job offers, schools etc. I would be trying to confirm from as many places as possible whatever tidbits you manage to get from a single person, whoever they are. I realise over the internet this is not that easy.

If you are looking in big cities, I would be hitting local forums and expat sites, asking questions, making contacts and going over everything with a fine-toothed comb. I would then be on the lookout for the best contract, and a school willing to enter into negotiations over parts that you think are problematic. Obviously the wider your initial search, the harder this is to do. Once you get an idea of where you want to/might end up, start the serious search.

While you are unlikely to resolve all problems and lose all your fears (if you think you have, then look harder for problems), you can improve your odds of landing a good job with a little luck and a whole lot of digging around.

bluetortilla

Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 815
Location: Henan

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:13 pm Post subject:

dean_a_jones wrote:

bluetortilla wrote:

If we can't trust the people advertising on the China Job Board (shouldn't they be approved by this web site?), then where do we go?

I don't think that's being a cynic, that answers my question quite throughly and is good sound advice. I do have some contacts in Southern China (where I want to go) and the places I want to go are limited and easier to zoom in on now. I'm also fortunate to be thick-skinned enough that I could put up with a less than ideal situation until I could get a better one.

I got 4 months- that means three- to find a job through the Internet and that goes by quicker than one thinks. Otherwise you might end up 'hitting the street feet running' which is never pleasant.

I'd still like to know though if schools break or falsify their contracts. I can take some bending with hours or a dingy apartment but an apartment nonetheless, but I can't tolerate arbitrary pay cuts or excessive, arbitrary hours for instance.

dean_a_jones

Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:28 pm Post subject:

bluetortilla wrote:

I'd still like to know though if schools break or falsify their contracts. I can take some bending with hours or a dingy apartment but an apartment nonetheless, but I can't tolerate arbitrary pay cuts or excessive, arbitrary hours for instance.

Some do, though you are best protected by getting a job that has you coming in on a z-visa, as that means the school is at least in the position to hire a foreign teacher. Settle for anything less that this and expect trouble (which may or may not come).

The contract here is key. You need to be sure that you are happy with what you sign, and ideally that it has as little vague and open-ended language as possible. When the school does try to put one over on you, then you can refer back to you contract and what you have agreed. If your contract is loose and unclear, that will generally work in favour of the school, not you. Don't think that an open contract will give you flexibility. If you cannot get it in the contract for whatever reason (i.e. it is a minor point or promise), at least get it in writing. Don't assume any verbal agreements will be upheld. It is essential to get into the contract detailed information on working hours, overtime (and overtime rate), class sizes and types and expectations on any 'extra' work like promotion, English salons, office hours etc.

The other key is to be firm and clear from the start when a demand is made. If something is not to your liking, if they are trying to get you to do something extra ("just this once") and so on, be clear on where you stand. A lot of the time, the more you give, the more they will take. Schools are masters at getting people to do free stuff for them.

Part of the root problem underlying all this is that often, Chinese teachers and staff cannot say no to the extra work, overtime, additional duties etc. if they are scrambling up the greasy pole and in competition with everyone else. If you are the only foreign teacher at your school, don't get sucked into this game. If you are not, avoid playing politics with the other teachers, communicate with them and speak to each other about requests to make sure you are all on the same page (or at least know where everyone stands).

As in workplaces around the world, the new guy is often the one who has to deal with the most unreasonable work. If you have a good contract (and managed to find a good school through good research) then you are in the best position to stand firm and have your expectations met.

igorG

Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:34 pm Post subject:

bluetortilla wrote:

igorG wrote:

Sites carry agencies adverts and some are hidden under misleading names that give you an impression they are the employers. Forums support varieties of users that may sponsor job adverts themselves. If you were an agent in a country, any employer there would pose a potential business to you.

As for the contracts, there are employer agreements and SAFEA contracts, but i bet you have been explained that via PM. What you may not have been told yet is that some agents offer contracts, which if i were you, i wouldn't sign. Like i have said, deal directly with the employer.

With respect to "pimping", it's about making money.

Miles Smiles

Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:21 am Post subject:

bluetortilla wrote:

Miles Smiles wrote:

Let me 'splain it to you. Two of the names referenced TEACH at the schools in the ad wherein their names appear. What's the difference between that and an agency? For one thing, those teachers have a personal interest in hiring the best teachers they can.

The meaning of co-op: Done in cooperation with others: a cooperative effort.

That means that the schools are probably running one webpage in cooperation with each other. The schools may even have some academic or business connection.

I don't know why someone who lives and works in Japan would want to get involved in a discussion about China in which he is an antagonist.

bluetortilla

Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 815
Location: Henan

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:09 pm Post subject:

Miles Smiles wrote:

I don't know why someone who lives and works in Japan would want to get involved in a discussion about China in which he is an antagonist.

Sorry if I came across as antagonistic. I'm moving to China in February and looking for a job. There's a lot I don't understand.

Thanks for the info!

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