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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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 Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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There are different opinions on the state of the market and employers' preferences.
It's difficult, if not impossible, to verify such information.
Don't be fooled by post count. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
There are different opinions on the state of the market and employers' preferences.
It's difficult, if not impossible, to verify such information.
Don't be fooled by post count. |
Yes, verifying such data is pretty much impossible, since no official organization keeps/publishes a record that is easily accessible, if they keep such a record at all. Posters simply have to rely on what people on the street can tell them.
What information would you find most trustworthy? Just curious.
I would also be interested in knowing your opinion on the state of the market and how you may have arrived at that. The remark about "post count" seems to be directed at people such as myself, and I never claim to know everything (but try to stay informed). In fact, I've often (and recently) asked on forums such as this for firsthand information on the entry level market, but that information never seems to be forthcoming. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
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| would potential employers not bother with me if I told them I only would accept a position in Tokyo or Osaka? |
Not necessarily. Large employers like AEON and ECC and JET will ask where you want to go, but in the end, unless you can prove some really valid reason for being posted where you like, it seems like you go where they have the openings.
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| Just my opinion, but big cities are always more fun. I grew up in a boring, predominately white upper-middle class suburb so it's nice to have a change. |
I grew up in a town of 800, and since then have lived in cities of 10,000 and 50,000 and 250,000 and 2 million. You make your fun where you find it, is my feeling.
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| A year of relevant experience is useless...OK. Does anyone else believe this to be true or is this just your negative outlook? |
I'll wait for others to respond, but I don't particularly care for the words "negative outlook". Makes it sound personal. Please understand that my appraisal of your Korean work experience is not how I personally feel, but how many employers here perceive things, ok?
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| I believe I have a good personality, but I guess that's up for the interviewers to decide. |
Everyone thinks their personality is good. What you have no control over is whether it seems to match that of the employers' desires, whether for his students (the paying clients) or the staff, or both.
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1) I was mocking you for your negative outlook, not being serious.
2) Diablo 3 isn't anime, nor do I have any interest in anime. |
Please stay with serious posts. People on forums cannot always distinguish sarcasm from real feelings/intent. |
Mostly agree with you. Honestly, unless you are rich, and have lots of time, then Tokyo has far too much too offer to really make it worth going to over other cities.
As for small towns, there is a point when they are too small. or in some areas where there will literally be no one your age.
Also, there are some things that you do need. I lift, and do BJJ. I have been in areas that don't have a real gym. BJJ dojos are rare on the ground outside the major urban/suburban areas for the most part. |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| What information would you find most trustworthy? Just curious. |
- Information from people on the street, if it's relevant to a question.
- Information whose validity isn't asserted or justified by reference to length of membership of internet fora - an oblique appeal to authority.
- Information fronted, when appropriate, with suitable epistemic markers indicating opinion or highlighting issues with ascertaining the veracity of the opinion.
- Information that isn't coloured by confirmation bias (i.e. information that is qualified and shaped by the posts like those made recently by Rooster2006 and barbaricyip), rather than dismissing contradictory information as exceptions. If the data doesn't fit, the hypothesis must be discarded or modified.
For example, where does the assertion that Japanese employers regard foreign experience in Asia - Korea or Taiwan, for example - as irrelevant come from? I've only ever heard the claim made here, so perhaps it's not common knowledge. If there is no data available to support it, and there are conterexamples to the claim, should it not be at least hedged?
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| I would also be interested in knowing your opinion on the state of the market and how you may have arrived at that. |
I don't really have an opinion on it. I came to this conclusion because there is little reliable anecdotal data available (because that's a contradiction in terms) on which to base a valid conclusion, and I'm not in a position to gather large scale quantitative data. That was the biggest take-home from my thesis research.
Besides, challenging someone to offer something better is in many ways underhand - it deflects the attention from the point.
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| The remark about "post count" seems to be directed at people such as myself, and I never claim to know everything (but try to stay informed). In fact, I've often (and recently) asked on forums such as this for firsthand information on the entry level market, but that information never seems to be forthcoming. |
The remark about post count wasn't directed at you; it was aimed at people who might be reading the forum.
With regards to your request for my thesis data, I have sent you a PM. |
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ghostrider
Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Osaka rules because the people are much friendlier and outgoing. I'd aim for it if I was ever going to return.
Tokyo is overcrowded, people are much colder, foreigners everywhere (including more professionals, college students, rich kids, and tourists). If you're young, the music scene isn't really producing much unique content. Mostly DJ's rehashing other countries' stuff. Too many cliquey, pretentious kids who aspire to be exactly that. Osaka isn't any better in producing unique music, but people are far more down to earth.
There's also the closer proximity to Fukushima that'd leave me nervous, though it seems like nowhere's completely safe in Japan now unless you find a secluded place in Fukuoka/Okinawa and only eat imported food.
The only advantage I'd see Tokyo having is advancement opportunities. There's more private schools and private school dispatch companies there and they pay a decent salary with all the perks of JET/ALT in terms of holidays. University is the next best thing, but competition for those positions in Tokyo and surrounding prefectures is fierce, not sure if the odds would be better in Kansai (fewer universities, but less competition). |
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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 458
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| ghostrider wrote: |
Osaka rules because the people are much friendlier and outgoing. I'd aim for it if I was ever going to return.
Tokyo is overcrowded, people are much colder, foreigners everywhere (including more professionals, college students, rich kids, and tourists). If you're young, the music scene isn't really producing much unique content. Mostly DJ's rehashing other countries' stuff. Too many cliquey, pretentious kids who aspire to be exactly that. Osaka isn't any better in producing unique music, but people are far more down to earth.
There's also the closer proximity to Fukushima that'd leave me nervous, though it seems like nowhere's completely safe in Japan now unless you find a secluded place in Fukuoka/Okinawa and only eat imported food.
The only advantage I'd see Tokyo having is advancement opportunities. There's more private schools and private school dispatch companies there and they pay a decent salary with all the perks of JET/ALT in terms of holidays. University is the next best thing, but competition for those positions in Tokyo and surrounding prefectures is fierce, not sure if the odds would be better in Kansai (fewer universities, but less competition). |
Good post, Ghostrider.
I'd recommend Tokyo or Osaka for the same reasons - that's where most of the jobs are, variety and all the amenities of metropolitan living.
Get out in the sticks and that can bring on a whole slew of problems - especially for newbies just getting started in Japan.
Yeah, university jobs are fiercely sought after by many thousands of qualified foreign teachers. Real tough to get into those positions right off the bat. Not impossible, but difficult. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
| What information would you find most trustworthy? Just curious. |
[list][*]Information from people on the street, if it's relevant to a question. |
That's interesting because of the point below:
| Quote: |
| For example, where does the assertion that Japanese employers regard foreign experience in Asia - Korea or Taiwan, for example - as irrelevant come from? |
People on the street who post on this and other forums, the very people you said you would trust.
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| I've only ever heard the claim made here, so perhaps it's not common knowledge. If there is no data available to support it, and there are conterexamples to the claim, should it not be at least hedged? |
As should the counterexamples.
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| I would also be interested in knowing your opinion on the state of the market and how you may have arrived at that. |
I don't really have an opinion on it. I came to this conclusion because there is little reliable anecdotal data available (because that's a contradiction in terms) on which to base a valid conclusion, and I'm not in a position to gather large scale quantitative data. That was the biggest take-home from my thesis research. |
Large-scale quantitative data is the foundation of hard science. You aren't going to have hard science on discussion forums unless someone can show a link from an official source. None exist, so you have to get your gut feelings from what you read here and from who you talk to.
I find it very hard to understand how you can have no opinion at all about the state of the market. No opinion? How is that possible? Your "conclusion" is that there are "different opinions". That's rather an obvious statement, and a cop-out IMO.
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| The remark about "post count" seems to be directed at people such as myself... |
The remark about post count wasn't directed at you; it was aimed at people who might be reading the forum. |
Semantics. It's pretty obvious what you really meant.  |
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nimaime
Joined: 14 Aug 2011
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| rich45 wrote: |
| It is not true that Japanese employers only take into account Japanese experience. I worked in Korea for 18 months before I started applying for jobs in Japan online, and within a week I had found a position, with my employer clearly impressed that I wasn't a complete newbie. Good luck to the OP. |
Right. I can't imagine experience in Korea counting as nothing like some suggest.
OP: why must you be in Tokyo? I live in Korea now and hope to work in Japan someday (when/if the market improves). I live in Gyeonggi-do, it's 30 minutes from Seoul, cheaper, and the air is cleaner. Why not consider something similar in Japan? Saitama, Chiba, etc surround Tokyo and you can always go to Tokyo on weekends. |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
| What information would you find most trustworthy? Just curious. |
[list][*]Information from people on the street, if it's relevant to a question. |
That's interesting because of the point below:
| Quote: |
| For example, where does the assertion that Japanese employers regard foreign experience in Asia - Korea or Taiwan, for example - as irrelevant come from? |
People on the street who post on this and other forums, the very people you said you would trust |
Yes, but as I said (and your ability to selectively quote only the parts of a post that suit your position continues to astound - remember the bit about confirmation bias? Hmm?) information from people on the street - i.e. those in a position to know. For example, if I were to be applying for a job in Tokyo, I might ask someone in Tokyo. The weight I place on their information would be based on whether or not they work for the organisation in question, whether they work in the same sector of ELT and so on. Simples.
Besides, "people on the street" is not in and of itself "people who post on internet forums". You're not 'on the street', Glenski, please don't pretend you are.
Finally, I didn't say I would trust the people providing the information, I said I would find the information more trustworthy. There is a difference. However, it doesn't suit you to appreciate that.
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| As should the counterexamples. |
OK.
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| I would also be interested in knowing your opinion on the state of the market and how you may have arrived at that. |
I don't really have an opinion on it. I came to this conclusion because there is little reliable anecdotal data available (because that's a contradiction in terms) on which to base a valid conclusion, and I'm not in a position to gather large scale quantitative data. That was the biggest take-home from my thesis research. |
Large-scale quantitative data is the foundation of hard science. You aren't going to have hard science on discussion forums unless someone can show a link from an official source. None exist, so you have to get your gut feelings from what you read here and from who you talk to. |
There's no evidence, so any information, however unreliable, far from the truth and divorced from the experiences of other members of the forum it may be, is better than none? Right you are then.
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| I find it very hard to understand how you can have no opinion at all about the state of the market. No opinion? How is that possible? Your "conclusion" is that there are "different opinions". That's rather an obvious statement, and a cop-out IMO. |
Really? Let's put it another way then:
It's not possible to build an accurate picture of the state of the ELT market in Japan - a country with a population in excess of 125,000,000 people possessing the largest conurbations in the world - without hard data. Any opinions based on the incomplete and self-selecting information posted on internet forums are highly likely therefore to be hopelessly incomplete or fail to take into account basic facts.
The 1% rule
You may call it a cop-out; it's not.
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| The remark about "post count" seems to be directed at people such as myself... |
The remark about post count wasn't directed at you; it was aimed at people who might be reading the forum. |
Semantics. It's pretty obvious what you really meant. |
You're right, it's semantics. In this case, yours. I know you'd love this to be a personal attack, Glenski, but it's not. |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| barbaricyip wrote: |
| Chiming in as a successful job applicant who had just one year of experience in Korea. I'll be working at a private junior high school - admittedly, in a smallish satellite city near Osaka, not in Tokyo - but obviously, it can be done. |
It's nivce to hear this 
Sometimes we need a bit of cheer to balance the doom and gloom.  |
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taffer
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 50
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:08 pm Post subject: Smaller city/ mini Tokyo |
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In my experience it was fine to be for example in Sanuki, Ryugasaki in Ibaraki with Kashiwa, Chiba just a few stops away. Google map it. I could walk to work in a mere 12 minutes. On the weekends, I would roll on over to Kashiwa, get what I wanted shopping and entertainment wise. I did a run to Tokyo 6-8 times a year. I kept my savings high but had my creature comforts taken care of.
The other thing to consider is FBC Japan, Flying Pig and The Meat Guy Japan websites... |
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geekpie
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| Are people really short sighted enough to overlook the outlying cities that are only 20-30 minutes from Tokyo? Is it really a case of fresh grads hell bent on living 5 minutes away from Shibuya crossing? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| It's not possible to build an accurate picture of the state of the ELT market in Japan |
Nobody is asking for an accurate picture, just your opinion. I still find it hard to imagine that you have absolutely none, as you say, but I guess you learn something new every day.
Last edited by Glenski on Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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An opinion is an opinion. Opinions are (or ought to be) based on facts. I have an opinion on the local ELT scene - I have far more knowledge about that than I do of Tokyo, for example, but even then I recognise that I don't have all the facts, and therefore am likely to be mistaken in my formulation.
Besides, repeatedly asking me for my opinion of the 'state of the market' is, as I wrote above, a rhetorical sleight of hand and adds nothing to the conversation. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:47 am Post subject: |
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What "sleight of hand"? Didn't you read the original post?
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| getting placement in Tokyo or another major city |
Of course, since you only list Kyushu as your location, it's not easy to say whether your "local scene" fits the above. Perhaps not, but it would be nice to know.
I would think that any information would be helpful to the OP. If you balk just because you don't feel you know everything about your local scene, then don't post, but who really does know everything? Nobody. That's why this discussion forum exists, though -- to share information and opinions so that people can learn from each other. Oh, well. |
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