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PandaPandemonium
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Posts: 54
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 Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:17 am Post subject: Re: China esl job market controlled by racist recruiters |
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| writpetition wrote: |
It really hurts that after teaching English in China and having given the career some of one's best years of life, one finds oneself against a wall of racist recruiters.
It would appear that recruiters have arrayed themselves like the Great Wall in the esl job market and the first thing they look at in an application is one's passport / area of origin.
I have taught in China for a cumulative of 7 years since 2001 and noe suddenly, my applications are not even considered worthy of a response. It also appears these days that almost all job postings are done by recruiters and they simply trash any application not from one of the BIG 5.
Would really appreciate if anyone here would know of positions open, preferably at a university, to so-called non-native English teachers.
I mean, I can't even call myself a non-native since that is my first language and also have some publishing credits to my name.
I mean, after years as an English teacher in China I find myself incapable of doing anything but...
Someone, please help me with a job at a university...please!
Someone, please help with a job... |
have you tried www.echinacities.com job advertisements? Some of them openly look for non-natives and Africans |
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haller_79
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| PandaPandemonium wrote: |
| Silent Shadow wrote: |
Personally, I think it depends on the individual applicant. I would have no objection for example, in hiring Mark Rowswell (Da Shan) to teach me Chinese, for instance (If I could afford him). He is a non native speaker of Chinese |
Quite so, everything depends on how much you trust the teacher.
If I'm sure a non-native person has excellent command of the language and is knowledgeable, I would prefer him to a native. I would wish him to teach me how to achieve his level of competency. |
Very true, the word here is 'metacognition', understanding how one learns something. If someone acquired calculus without barely trying, then how would they be able to teach it? They would just assume everyone absorbs the information as easily as they do. Therefore the non-native fluent speaker should by rights be able to teach English AS A FOREIGN LANGUAGE better than someone who has been speaking it since they were a toddler. |
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writpetition
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 213
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:39 am Post subject: Re: China esl job market controlled by racist recruiters |
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| PandaPandemonium wrote: |
have you tried www.echinacities.com job advertisements? Some of them openly look for non-natives and Africans |
Thanks, PandaP! Will do! |
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writpetition
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 213
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:00 am Post subject: Re: China esl job market controlled by racist recruiters |
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| big_big_bang_theory_fan wrote: |
| writpetition wrote: |
It really hurts that after teaching English in China and having given the career some of one's best years of life, one finds oneself against a wall of racist recruiters.
It would appear that recruiters have arrayed themselves like the Great Wall in the esl job market and the first thing they look at in an application is one's passport / area of origin.
I have taught in China for a cumulative of 7 years since 2001 and noe suddenly, my applications are not even considered worthy of a response. It also appears these days that almost all job postings are done by recruiters and they simply trash any application not from one of the BIG 5.
Would really appreciate if anyone here would know of positions open, preferably at a university, to so-called non-native English teachers.
I mean, I can't even call myself a non-native since that is my first language and also have some publishing credits to my name.
I mean, after years as an English teacher in China I find myself incapable of doing anything but...
Someone, please help me with a job at a university...please!
Someone, please help with a job... |
Sorry, but .... boo hoo hoo. Just because you don't like the country and its "ways" hardly makes it racist. Don't apply YOUR definition from YOUR home country to another culture. Racism as a practice is different from country to country, is the norm and accepted in some, and so on. Just 'cuz you don't like it stop applying your personal beliefs to another culture. Clearly you shouldn't live or work in a country you have decided is racist - go find a nice place that will bow to your way of life and yield to your personal beliefs.
Never left your home country before it seems. |
Would you, by any chance be one such recruiter? Just asking! |
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Opiate
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 630
Location: Qingdao
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| PandaPandemonium wrote: |
| Opiate wrote: |
Would you pay for Italian language lessons from a Native American with a passport from Brazil? How about lessons on Ebonics from a white guy with a passport and accent from Australia? .....right...didn't think so.
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Excuse me, I want to add something here. (Us) non-native speakers are much more able to step into learners' shoes and clarify things to them then native speakers are. In my experience, a (good, of course) non-native teacher is usually more knowledgeable on the point of grammar than an average native speaker because there are lots of language issues you acquire "naturally", while we have to comprehend WHY they are used as they are, and we can help students understand it better. |
I think we all know that for the vast majority of schools out there the reality is irrelevant. It's primarily about marketing, actual education can be quite low on the list of priorities. I agree with you that many non-native speakers who achieve fluency are likely to have superior grammar compared to the average native speaker but again, it is not relevant to many schools.
Non-native speakers are simply less marketable overall. |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| PandaPandemonium wrote: |
........
Excuse me, I want to add something here. (Us) non-native speakers are much more able to step into learners' shoes and clarify things to them then native speakers are. In my experience, a (good, of course) non-native teacher is usually more knowledgeable on the point of grammar than an average native speaker because there are lots of language issues you acquire "naturally", while we have to comprehend WHY they are used as they are, and we can help students understand it better. |
[pssst....you really oughter fix yer grammers....] |
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PandaPandemonium
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| choudoufu wrote: |
| PandaPandemonium wrote: |
........
Excuse me, I want to add something here. (Us) non-native speakers are much more able to step into learners' shoes and clarify things to them then native speakers are. In my experience, a (good, of course) non-native teacher is usually more knowledgeable on the point of grammar than an average native speaker because there are lots of language issues you acquire "naturally", while we have to comprehend WHY they are used as they are, and we can help students understand it better. |
[pssst....you really oughter fix yer grammers....] |
sure, what are the mistakes?
(if it's not too much trouble for you.) |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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The recruiting bar gets set higher or lower depending on supply and demand.
I worked as a recruiter in home country and faced with short listing say 4 from 50 applicants I had to prune heavily and without much introspection.
Advertise for a degree qualified CPA with minimum 6 years auditing.
All the degree qualified CPAs with 3 years auditing were binned quick smart.
Doubtless these discards could do the job but out they went.
Now shortlist 4 from 6 for the same job in a scarce job market and the dynamic changes.
Now the Chinese are colour discriminators no question. One of my first students in PRC was an angelic beauty with charming manners and I mean Madonna and Child here.
She was dark complected and from a rural area.
Her Chinese classmates nickname for her 'Black Girl'. |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: China esl job market controlled by racist recruiters |
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| big_big_bang_theory_fan wrote: |
Sorry, but .... boo hoo hoo. Just because you don't like the country and its "ways" hardly makes it racist. Don't apply YOUR definition from YOUR home country to another culture. Racism as a practice is different from country to country, is the norm and accepted in some, and so on. Just 'cuz you don't like it stop applying your personal beliefs to another culture. Clearly you shouldn't live or work in a country you have decided is racist - go find a nice place that will bow to your way of life and yield to your personal beliefs.
Never left your home country before it seems. |
If this argument is valid, then the atrocities of WWII and the Jim Crow era of America are excusable.
Sorry bud. Racism is racism no matter where you go. |
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jayjjasper
Joined: 27 Aug 2011
Posts: 344
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Sorry bud. Racism is racism no matter where you go. |
While I may agree with the tone of this thread, I cannot compare all nations racist characteristics in such a black and white canvas.
| Quote: |
| I have taught in China for a cumulative of 7 years since 2001 and noe suddenly, my applications are not even considered worthy of a response. It also appears these days that almost all job postings are done by recruiters and they simply trash any application not from one of the BIG 5. |
First the poster has made an assumption according to his post and racism may or may not have played a part in his failure to illicit a response. The lack of emails could be due to a perception of the market which is a economic as well as a marketing decision. There is a great deal of predigests in this industry but it is usually based on the parents perception of the type of English they want their children to learn. A person from Scotland may encounter the same reluctance as one from Africa. A male may also receive the same reluctance when a female is chosen over them as women are thought to be better equip to work with children. This does not come from a position of power in which the proof of racism is required but rather in the power of "personal choice" of the market. I think the OP is really looking for an area where he can obtain employment and not so much a targeting of Chinese recruiters (white recruiters are often making the same day to day culling of candidates as unsuitable due to a number of factors including race.) as racist. |
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Silent Shadow
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:13 am Post subject: |
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Switch on the TV in China and watch Chinese basketball or regional football in this country and you will see that the majority of foreigners playing in China are black, and they seem to have been generally well received (i'm not saying that they've had no problems. Note that, your average white EFL teacher is not problem free over here, anyway).
This indicates that much discrimination in China is based on what the colour of a person is perceived to represent, rather than a dislike for the colour itself. When it comes to teaching English, generally the white image is preferred, but when the Chinese want a basketball player in their team I wouldn't mind betting that plenty of white guys have been crying foul when applying for positions in China.
I've seen advertisements in China where rappers and DJs have been wanted and they have specifically stated that a black person was wanted. Does this indicate that the Chinese dislike people with white skin?
Being called black in the classroom because your skin happens to be darker than most of your classmates, although not very pleasant (and wrong), is a phenomenon that occurs in virtually every region of the world including in black communities in America, England and the Carribean.
As a brown person who's lived in China for nine years, I just don't feel this huge dislike that some posters seem to feel that the Chinese have for darker skinned people. |
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mrwslee003
Joined: 14 Nov 2009
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:36 am Post subject: wp is black? |
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Did I miss that part? I cannot recall anywhere stating that WP is black and from Africa, or even female.
Suddenly wp finds that no one is begging her/him to teach-could it be its
because of his/her age, insecurity, or personal appeal?
Why do people jump to the conclusion that their problems are rooted in
race or the texture of their skin?
Is it because that is the easiest route? Or the best way to attract empathy
and simpathy? Or is it the politically correct thing to do?
I think we should seriously evaluate our own personality, attitude, social skills, and interpersonal skills before jumping into quick judgement that
the world is bad and wrong.
After so many years of teaching in China and one has yet build up enough
connections for ones long term servival, as claimed by wp. I think there
is something missing in this picture, something that I have mentioned. |
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xiguagua
Joined: 09 Oct 2011
Posts: 768
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Silent Shadow wrote: |
Switch on the TV in China and watch Chinese basketball or regional football in this country and you will see that the majority of foreigners playing in China are black, and they seem to have been generally well received (i'm not saying that they've had no problems. Note that, your average white EFL teacher is not problem free over here, anyway).
This indicates that much discrimination in China is based on what the colour of a person is perceived to represent, rather than a dislike for the colour itself. When it comes to teaching English, generally the white image is preferred, but when the Chinese want a basketball player in their team I wouldn't mind betting that plenty of white guys have been crying foul when applying for positions in China.
I've seen advertisements in China where rappers and DJs have been wanted and they have specifically stated that a black person was wanted. Does this indicate that the Chinese dislike people with white skin?
Being called black in the classroom because your skin happens to be darker than most of your classmates, although not very pleasant (and wrong), is a phenomenon that occurs in virtually every region of the world including in black communities in America, England and the Carribean.
As a brown person who's lived in China for nine years, I just don't feel this huge dislike that some posters seem to feel that the Chinese have for darker skinned people. |
Unfortunately the black basketball players and black rappers and DJ's are wanted because it perpetuates the stereotypes that Chinese people have of black people. Ask any Chinese what they think of black people and you'll have your answer. Stereotypes are everywhere here. Tell a Chinese person that you're Jewish and watch them get so excited because everyone knows that all Jewish people are soooo smart and soooo rich  |
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Silent Shadow
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| xiguagua wrote: |
| Silent Shadow wrote: |
Switch on the TV in China and watch Chinese basketball or regional football in this country and you will see that the majority of foreigners playing in China are black, and they seem to have been generally well received (i'm not saying that they've had no problems. Note that, your average white EFL teacher is not problem free over here, anyway).
This indicates that much discrimination in China is based on what the colour of a person is perceived to represent, rather than a dislike for the colour itself. When it comes to teaching English, generally the white image is preferred, but when the Chinese want a basketball player in their team I wouldn't mind betting that plenty of white guys have been crying foul when applying for positions in China.
I've seen advertisements in China where rappers and DJs have been wanted and they have specifically stated that a black person was wanted. Does this indicate that the Chinese dislike people with white skin?
Being called black in the classroom because your skin happens to be darker than most of your classmates, although not very pleasant (and wrong), is a phenomenon that occurs in virtually every region of the world including in black communities in America, England and the Carribean.
As a brown person who's lived in China for nine years, I just don't feel this huge dislike that some posters seem to feel that the Chinese have for darker skinned people. |
Unfortunately the black basketball players and black rappers and DJ's are wanted because it perpetuates the stereotypes that Chinese people have of black people. Ask any Chinese what they think of black people and you'll have your answer. Stereotypes are everywhere here. Tell a Chinese person that you're Jewish and watch them get so excited because everyone knows that all Jewish people are soooo smart and soooo rich |
That's exactly my point. Your point about Jewish people could almost equally apply to all white people. If you read my post again, you will see that nothing that you say contradicts my point. If you're not American (or if you are, pretend that you are not) ask Chinese people what they think about Americans. Do you honestly believe that you won't get a lot of sterotypical answers?
Your statement could fit any group of people. |
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xiguagua
Joined: 09 Oct 2011
Posts: 768
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| xiguagua wrote: |
| Silent Shadow wrote: |
Switch on the TV in China and watch Chinese basketball or regional football in this country and you will see that the majority of foreigners playing in China are black, and they seem to have been generally well received (i'm not saying that they've had no problems. Note that, your average white EFL teacher is not problem free over here, anyway).
This indicates that much discrimination in China is based on what the colour of a person is perceived to represent, rather than a dislike for the colour itself. When it comes to teaching English, generally the white image is preferred, but when the Chinese want a basketball player in their team I wouldn't mind betting that plenty of white guys have been crying foul when applying for positions in China.
I've seen advertisements in China where rappers and DJs have been wanted and they have specifically stated that a black person was wanted. Does this indicate that the Chinese dislike people with white skin?
Being called black in the classroom because your skin happens to be darker than most of your classmates, although not very pleasant (and wrong), is a phenomenon that occurs in virtually every region of the world including in black communities in America, England and the Carribean.
As a brown person who's lived in China for nine years, I just don't feel this huge dislike that some posters seem to feel that the Chinese have for darker skinned people. |
Unfortunately the black basketball players and black rappers and DJ's are wanted because it perpetuates the stereotypes that Chinese people have of black people. Ask any Chinese what they think of black people and you'll have your answer. Stereotypes are everywhere here. Tell a Chinese person that you're Jewish and watch them get so excited because everyone knows that all Jewish people are soooo smart and soooo rich |
That's exactly my point. Your point about Jewish people could almost equally apply to all white people. If you read my post again, you will see that nothing that you say contradicts my point. If you're not American (or if you are, pretend that you are not) ask Chinese people what they think about Americans. Do you honestly believe that you won't get a lot of sterotypical answers?
Your statement could fit any group of people. |
Right. Apparently I missed that entire 2nd paragraph somehow. I do actually do an entire class talking about stereotypes since I was lucky enough to have a unit in the book covering it. But in class it's interesting to go through the perceived stereotypes in China (Yes we cover Americans. That one is the most fun.) It's hard to root out these ideas from any culture including our own. |
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