Job Discussion Forums

snollygoster · Joined: 04 Jun 2009 Posts: 478

God forbid that the conversation should evolve
Yes- we can NOT allow a conversation-it wouldn't seem like a class-room then. Lets just have Yes/No in future.
Yes/No- Tick one and one only.

bludevil96 · Joined: 07 Aug 2006 Posts: 82

My whole point in all of this is not to test anyone's psychoanalysis ability, I'm merely saying that what you have here is someone who hasn't been affected by the system, who's bringing a fresh outlook, and a new degree of enthusiasms into a badly needed environment. Many of the people here already had your share of the pie. If you no longer like eating it, walk away from the table but don't go telling others that the pie is bad and the chef is lousy. What I didn't expect is for the debate(?) to devolve into a personal culture and government bashing spree. If you really feel this way, then I believe you have overstayed your welcome and you are a part of this mess you're complaining about. Just don't let the door hit you on your way out. Just sayin...

inhanoi · Joined: 22 Oct 2011 Posts: 165

Yes, there is an undercurrent of anger and resentment in some of these comments which is quite disturbing. There seems to be an attitude that blurs the education system, culture and history with the individual people, into one pot. We owe our students the courtesy to respect them as individuals capable of independent thought, apart from what their education system/culture may have taught. They will respond to this, I see it happen nearly every day.

Rather than criticize and mock, isn't it our role as teachers to encourage creativity and independent thought? It's the most rewarding aspect of teaching, helping our students expand their minds.

esbam2002 · Joined: 26 May 2011 Posts: 54

Jbhughes · Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 254

Looking at a culture as a whole and saying how you see it is one thing.

To then suggest that having a viewpoint means that a teacher won't respect their students as individuals is quite another.

While I respect your own view, inhanoi, and do agree to some degree with bludevil that having a fresh view/take on the situation can be valuable, I think you yourself are guilty of blurring the lines between how an expat views a country based on their experience and what they do in their professional life.

Knowing and understanding the culture can only help one make better informed decisions as a teacher, but I don't think even an outright cynical view (as you seem to be putting it) would necessitate someone treating their students poorly - if it did, then I would say the reason for this would be more of a serious problem then the original viewpoint.

No ill feeling intended.

snollygoster · Joined: 04 Jun 2009 Posts: 478

I am awed at how easy it is to get some people to come out swinging!
Bad English and all!

manxomejoe · Joined: 19 Jun 2011 Posts: 12 Location: The Woods

The prodigal son returns. I'm amazed at the amount of replies to my original post and thanks to everyone wanting to help out. My biggest fear was to show up in VN and have 0% chance of success due to a slight 'character' flaw.

That fear was unfounded and I greatly appreciate the input.

I am sure many parts of VN will be difficult, but if mere annoyances begin to pile into insurmountable issues, I'll know it's time to leave anyways.

I can't really add to or attest to anything else posted on here. So... yay, free speech!

snollygoster · Joined: 04 Jun 2009 Posts: 478

This is a very painful example of how a post can be 'hijacked.'
Aren't we all making a contribution to that?

inhanoi · Joined: 22 Oct 2011 Posts: 165

No, actually. There was just one particular point where the whole thing got hijacked. It was off in the other direction after that, continuing a new conversation. A number of people felt compelled to respond to what they viewed as inaccurate and misleading over-generalizations about Vietnamese people. Should they allow those statements to go unanswered? Readers of Dave's are entitled to hear all viewpoints, not just those of the hijacker.

manxo, thanks for returning and the best of luck to you.

bobpen · Joined: 04 Mar 2011 Posts: 89

bludevil96 · Joined: 07 Aug 2006 Posts: 82

Dear Mr. Hijacker,

�If one has not studied confucianism, then one cannot understand the Vietnamese-an elementary truism.�

I suggest you take another reading of the Vietnamese culture and Confucianism. Vietnamese society subscribes to Buddhism and Ancestral worship more so than Confucianism, even as a philosophy. Although Vietnam appears as a paternal based society, it's really maternal as evidenced by its history, and anything that is maternal based cannot be, as a whole, Confucianistic since that is completely male based. In Confucianism, a woman or mother would have to completely submit and obey to the will of males in the household. For example, a father's death would force the mother to submit to her son as the person who makes all decisions. This may happen in District 5 but I can assure you that no where else in Vietnam are you going to see this. Confucianism doesn't even make an impression in Vietnamese culture until the Le Dynasty under Le Loi (Le Thai To), which was the last Dynasty before the Nguyens. Before that, under the Ly Dynasty was Buddhism (religion-wise) since the first Ly king (Ly cong Uan) was an orphan and was raised by a Buddhist monk. Of course Buddhism had existed well before this time but it was the Lys who impart it into the culture similar to Catholism with the french. In fact, one of the biggest criticisms of the Ly Dynasty was that they had constructed too many temples devoted to Buddhism.

Confucianism values personal responsibility i.e. man, government, country. A great country begins with a single man and therefore yadda, yadda, yadda, where Taoism is based on living within the frame work of nature. You can say that Confucianism exerted some influence in Vietnamese society but you're really giving it too much credit. I don't see modern day Vietnamese culture is that much influenced at all by Confucianism but more of combination of each philosophy, if anything, leaning more towards Taoism philosophically and Buddhism as the main religion. Look at the Feng sui phenomenon and the birth signs such as tiger, pigs, ox, etc., for the year of birth; the signs of fire, water, earth, trees, etc., for the month/date/time of birth, in addition to spirits of occupation such as land and other major properties like boats and cars. All of this is rooted in Taoism. You can argue that the training system, which is to obey, and the value of the male (desire for sons over daughters) belong to Confucianism but you can�t dismiss one without the other. One religion that is a constant is Ancestral worship. Although only 24 percent of the current Vietnamese who identified themselves as having a religion, virtually all of them subscribes to Ancestry Worship. Now just because you�re married to a Vietnamese (general statement) doesn�t make you an expert on its history or an authority on the philosophy of Confucianism.

In my humble opinion, people like you are part of the �mess� because you stand there and yell fire and then lecture people about bad electrical circuits. When you offer your opinions that something is, so screwed that it�s not worth fixing, you�re changing the mind of someone who otherwise might have the tools to do it. Throwing out pejorative comments about its children, citizens, and government is at the very minimum, yelling that fire.

Mr. Kalgukshi · Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:34 am Post subject:

A member has just become an ex-member for insulting other members and violating the following policy found at the top of this forum:

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=77552

Yes, this should be interpreted as a warning to those who mistake this board for others they may visit where rules are non-existent or not enforced.

For the record, we do have rules here and they are enforced.