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China esl job market controlled by racist recruiters
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Silent Shadow



Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond

PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A stereotype lesson sounds like a very good idea. I've never discussed it in class before, but I think I will give it a go. Thanks for the idea. I think it will be quite enjoyable.

To the OP.

Try to bypass the recruiters if possible (I know it's not easy, because they seem to dominate on some sites). Have you taken any pictures or videos of yourself interacting with your students, in and around class? Any positive reference letters from former employers? I heard of one FT getting references from former students. I'm not sure if they would be believed, though.

Stuff like the above could help to break any ice that a non native passport might not be able to do.
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writpetition



Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 213

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silent Shadow wrote:
A stereotype lesson sounds like a very good idea. I've never discussed it in class before, but I think I will give it a go. Thanks for the idea. I think it will be quite enjoyable.

To the OP.

Try to bypass the recruiters if possible (I know it's not easy, because they seem to dominate on some sites). Have you taken any pictures or videos of yourself interacting with your students, in and around class? Any positive reference letters from former employers? I heard of one FT getting references from former students. I'm not sure if they would be believed, though.

Stuff like the above could help to break any ice that a non native passport might not be able to do.



Thanks SS! Unfortunately, it's hard to bypass recruiters now since most ad listings seem to come through them. In my early years in China I always applied directly and despite difficulties, managed to land university jobs. Of late, there seem ever fewer listings by universities which I prefer, since they are better employers (in my view and there are fewer f ups).

In the past, I tried not to stay too long in one place as I wanted a more complete China experience. New places, new nuances of cultural expression and the like excited and inspired me and I was always glad to look for out of the way locales to live and teach, mixing freely with the locals and students. However, I kept a distance from the power centers at universities, as I have a deep distrust of all authority, thus never really ingratiating myself with those in power/control. In fact, on one occasion, I even had a pretty unpleasant exchange with the vice president of a university I was teaching at since he made some derogatory comments about my country of origin.

I was awarded a 'best teacher' certificate at one of the universities I taught at but the FAO there didn't like me too much as I refused to teach at RMB 60 an hour for a gig they had organized. Obviously, they did not offer to renew my contract which I might have accepted, despite my reluctance to stay too long at one place.

When I apply I attach copies of my 'best teacher' certificate and also mention my writing and publishing credits. However, they are of little use if some junior clerk/recruiter trashes my applications purely on the basis of my nationality/passport. And, since most ads are listed by recruiters these days who unthinkingly trash applications it's become the Great Wall I am up against.

My intent was never to paint the Chinese as racists, as some here seem to have surmised but merely to seek the help of some more enlightened posters here, of whom there are quite a few.
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dean_a_jones



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't plan on leaving the city you work in, then you need to be networking with other teachers and getting your good name out there. Schools may use recruiters, but in my experience a university will first throw up a cheap ad or two on a website and ask one or all of their current teachers (particularly those they keep on, or the head teacher) if they know anyone for an open position. When the recommendation is coming from a trusted source and they can get you to do a demo, then your chances are much higher (I would have no problems recommending a non-native speaker any more than a native. I would only put my neck on the line for someone I thought was suitable and qualified).

This means you need to stay in once place, and ideally a larger city. If you want to move around, you are going to need to just deal with the fact that you are clearly not the ideal candidate for most places (at least on paper). The fact that you have a problem with authority also probably doesn't help you much. There is a game here, and if you are unwilling to play it, you will get shut out. That is not to say you should put up with being abused (such as teaching for a paltry sum), but if you don't learn to play the game on some level, don't expect to be picked for the team.

People doing recruiting are simply looking for the fastest route to getting their cash. Sending schools non-native speakers is risky for them, as the whole point of using a recruiter is to ease the process of getting a decent candidate. Often the people doing the hiring at a school are themselves unable to properly judge the English ability of a teacher. When it means they hire a poor native-speaking white teacher, the person who hired them can just blame it on the lazy foreigner. I imagine the blame falls on their own lap if they hire a non-native speaker and they turn out to be no good. This is the reality of the market. The fact that it might be unfair matters little.
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Opiate



Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 630
Location: Qingdao

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

writpetition wrote:

When I apply I attach copies of my 'best teacher' certificate and also mention my writing and publishing credits. However, they are of little use if some junior clerk/recruiter trashes my applications purely on the basis of my nationality/passport. And, since most ads are listed by recruiters these days who unthinkingly trash applications it's become the Great Wall I am up against.

My intent was never to paint the Chinese as racists, as some here seem to have surmised but merely to seek the help of some more enlightened posters here, of whom there are quite a few.


...but you ARE assuming this is even about race/nationality/whatever in the first place aren't you? You did make a sweeping generalization about recruiters being racists in the title of this thread right? but you are not trying to paint the Chinese as racists huh? Only the recruiters. I see.

Right.

I get it, I really do. You don't have a job in spite of your 'best teacher' certificate and publishing credits so every recruiter is out to screw you.

You have been here 7 years and do not understand that this is not the best time of year to land a job? Or that recruiters often do not even HAVE the jobs they post. No? Must be race/nationality keeping you down huh?

You came here for enlightened opinions while saying that racist recruiters control the ESL market? You do not sound very enlightened yourself.

BTW. In the city where I work there are likely more non-native speakers and blacks/browns/purples working in ESL than there are passport holders from the big 5 working here. I could very well be wrong but are certainly MANY. I wonder how they made it past the racist recruiters who control the ESL market.


Last edited by Opiate on Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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7969



Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:42 am    Post subject: Re: wp is black? Reply with quote

mrwslee003 wrote:
Why do people jump to the conclusion that their problems are rooted in
race or the texture of their skin?

Is it because that is the easiest route? Or the best way to attract empathy
and simpathy? Or is it the politically correct thing to do?

A combination of all of the above. It's very easy to blame others for life's problems and failings. Why take responsibility for anything when you can blame someone else and get others to feel sorry for you? It's the modern way I'm afraid.
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Baozi man



Joined: 06 Sep 2011
Posts: 214

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those who want to put the poster on the defensive as a racist are idiots. China is a racist nation, considering its size, it is the most racist nation in the world. The British are racists too; however, in Britain, you will find, in a hospital, for example, physicians of both Chinese and Indian descent. How many White physicians, of any nationality, are practicing medicine in China?

English teacher recruiters do make decisions based on race alone, whenever the opportunity arises. Most would always choose the lesser qualified White teacher over the better qualified person of color. They would do this any day, any time.

The students and their parents want a White teacher. It's all about the cachet of being taught by a "foreigner." Foreigner is nearly always code for a White person.

It is possible for people of color to find employment; however, it IS more difficult because of the racist policies/attitudes which permeate China in every dimension of society.

"If you are not British, you are to be ignored.
If you are not White, you are to be stepped on." British maxim


Last edited by Baozi man on Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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tomhume89



Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 103
Location: Changsha

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baozi man wrote:
The British are racists too


Haha, yeah. Very funny.
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Opiate



Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 630
Location: Qingdao

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baozi man wrote:

English teacher recruiters do make decisions based on race alone, whenever the opportunity arises. Most would always choose the lesser qualified White teacher over the better qualified person of color. They would do this any day, any time.

The students and their parents want a White teacher. It's all about the cachet of being taught by a "foreigner." Foreigner is nearly always code for a White person.


This is true however just because a person does not get a job at the moment they want one it does not mean it's because of race/nationality. it also depends on the school. Mills want white faces though there are plenty employed where i live with out them.

As has been said before, the OP should avoid recruiters and look for a school that will value his experience.
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jayjjasper



Joined: 27 Aug 2011
Posts: 344

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How many White physicians, of any nationality, are practicing medicine in China?


This allegation/conclusion doesn't factor in wage and benefits of doctors seeking employment in western countries. Many physicians that work in so called international hospitals are of Chinese heritage trying to gain a western paycheck in a culture they are more comfortable with and a area where they have access to their families...the fact that they are bilingual enables them to be more employable to a company that provides services in China.
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dean_a_jones



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baozi man wrote:
"If you are not British, you are to be ignored.
If you are not White, you are to be stepped on." British maxim


Pop Quiz. Is this famous maxim:

A. Above the main doors to the House of Lords

B. On the reverse of the 5 pound note

C. Printed on the inside cover of every British passport

D. "Absolutely fundamental" according to a BNP source.
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PandaPandemonium



Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baozi man wrote:
Those who want to put the poster on the defensive as a racist are idiots. China is a racist nation, considering its size, it is the most racist nation in the world. The British are racists too; however, in Britain, you will find, in a hospital, for example, physicians of both Chinese and Indian descent. How many White physicians, of any nationality, are practicing medicine in China?

English teacher recruiters do make decisions based on race alone, whenever the opportunity arises. Most would always choose the lesser qualified White teacher over the better qualified person of color. They would do this any day, any time.

The students and their parents want a White teacher. It's all about the cachet of being taught by a "foreigner." Foreigner is nearly always code for a White person.

It is possible for people of color to find employment; however, it IS more difficult because of the racist policies/attitudes which permeate China in every dimension of society.
Thank god for some common sense. Thank you baozi man, after your post there is no need for debate is the sky blue or not.
Quote:

"If you are not British, you are to be ignored.
If you are not White, you are to be stepped on." British maxim


LOL
at least British laws say the opposite
here (in China) it is not the case. I have never in my life seen more open racism. the only thing to be admitted is that Chinese are not agressive
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PandaPandemonium



Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baozi man wrote:
Those who want to put the poster on the defensive as a racist are idiots. China is a racist nation, considering its size, it is the most racist nation in the world. The British are racists too; however, in Britain, you will find, in a hospital, for example, physicians of both Chinese and Indian descent. How many White physicians, of any nationality, are practicing medicine in China?

English teacher recruiters do make decisions based on race alone, whenever the opportunity arises. Most would always choose the lesser qualified White teacher over the better qualified person of color. They would do this any day, any time.

The students and their parents want a White teacher. It's all about the cachet of being taught by a "foreigner." Foreigner is nearly always code for a White person.

It is possible for people of color to find employment; however, it IS more difficult because of the racist policies/attitudes which permeate China in every dimension of society.
Thank god for some common sense. Thank you baozi man, after your post there is no need for debate is the sky blue or not.
Quote:

"If you are not British, you are to be ignored.
If you are not White, you are to be stepped on." British maxim


LOL
at least British laws say the opposite
here (in China) it is not the case. I have never in my life seen more open racism. the only thing to be admitted is that Chinese are not agressive
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Cairnsman



Joined: 22 Jun 2009
Posts: 203

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So many instances of 'deja vu' on this board.

The OP's very first post:-

Quote:
writpetition

Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 213

Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:03 am

Post subject: What's happening in the esl arena? New rules?

Gawd, what the hell's happened to the esl job scenario in China? I've sent out hundreds of mails of late but got almost no responses. Last year I was invited (I mean invited, without having applied) by a state-owned university. Apparently, they'd heard of me somewhere probably becuase I write and my work appears fairly regularly in a monthly magazine. Around the end of the school-year and the contract the dean of the English Deptt and the Wai-ban asked me if I wanted to extend my contract. I hesitated and did not bite, reasons being my wanderlust, desire to earn a higher salary than the 5000 (RMB, of course) I was earning, apart from some minor irritants at the school (nothing major). And now, this? is it hubris? or karma? or what the hell?

Or is it because I'm not white-skinned, blue-eyed and blonde-haired and not from one of those vaunted parts of the world though my English abilities are good. English is almost my mother tongue (ours being a multilingual family that uses English almost all the time) and I write in English almost exclusively.

Is Englsh-teaching more about origins and looks and less about abilities? Is native or non-native suddenly such a huge issue?

Is there hope, yet? I mean I love teaching and writing in China and my students, too have been very fond of me wherever I have taught in the past three years, yet...

Any insights? and more importantly, any ideas who might want a 'pariah'?

Will appreciate any inputs.

Thanks!
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Kiwi303



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 165
Location: Chong Qing Jiao Tong Da Xue, Xue Fu Da Dao, Nan An Qu, Chong Qing Shi, P. R China

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dean_a_jones wrote:
Baozi man wrote:
"If you are not British, you are to be ignored.
If you are not White, you are to be stepped on." British maxim


Pop Quiz. Is this famous maxim:

A. Above the main doors to the House of Lords

B. On the reverse of the 5 pound note

C. Printed on the inside cover of every British passport

D. "Absolutely fundamental" according to a BNP source.


Just read Kipling sometime...
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dean_a_jones



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like his cakes, so I just might!
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