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matador
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 281
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 Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 1:24 am Post subject: Why is the level of English so low!? |
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Okay, I may be wrong but here is my impression- Most (not all) Japanese will go out of their way to avoid using English (particularly in business), if you phone up a business and speak English they will often put the phone down on you or say 'Fax please'. If you send them a letter asking about their products (maybe you are a customer), they will not reply. After 24 (?) years of NOVAs, etc, why is it still:
Eigo dame
Eigo wakarimasen
Eigo muzakashi, ne
Is it Japanese culture that you do not want to draw attention to yourself by speaking English (even if a customer calls you), is it that until you speak 100% fluent English that you do not want to make mistakes?
Is it that Japan is not an international country (like say USA or US) and does not need to speak English?
Is learning English a hobby like pottery or flower arranging...not really a tool for business communication?
How many of your students have made good progress since you have known them?
So in summary: Japan is not an international country (don't expect it to be)...English is best taught by Japanese because they make the students feel more 'comfortable' (no gaijin complex)... learning English must be light, fun and frothy (whats your favorite shopping, Satomi?) unless Japanese will be scared that its too difficult.
How many of you have been pulled up by your boss because, after the lesson, one of the students said the lesson was' chotto muzakashi...'?
Oh no! You mean the student had to actually learn something!?! Well, ooo-la-la! You mean the teacher stopped acting like a clown (..but they like that...its genki!) and actually tried to teach you how to use English?
(Inner voice: Stop ranting....go with the flow....dont rock the boat....just make your lesson like a coffee from Starbucks (syrupy and sweet)....get your money...and be genki!) 
...I honestly do not know. Why is the level of English so low? ... and will it ever change?  |
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tokyorabbit
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 30
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 4:12 am Post subject: |
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Interesting topic.
Last edited by tokyorabbit on Sun Oct 16, 2005 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 4:44 am Post subject: Re: Why is the level of English so low!? |
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| matador wrote: |
Eigo dame
Eigo wakarimasen
Eigo muzakashi, ne
Is it Japanese culture that you do not want to draw attention to yourself by speaking English (even if a customer calls you), is it that until you speak 100% fluent English that you do not want to make mistakes?
Is it that Japan is not an international country (like say USA or US) and does not need to speak English?
Does being an international country mean being able to speak English? How many Americans speak foreign languages? what would happen if you picked up the phone in New York and started speaking French, german or Japanese?. In Japan Japanese is the national language, spoken by 99.9% of the population and there is no daily need for people to know or speak English with each other, just like English in the US
Moreove people equate being international means speaking American English, or speaking with a native speaker, when a majority of the non-English speaking world world speak English as a second langauge, more people than Americans speak foreign languages.
Is learning English a hobby like pottery or flower arranging...not really a tool for business communication?
people who need English for work will study it, if their job, promotion or salry depends on it. that said, learning a foreign language as a grown adult is no easy task. What is is you level of Japanese vocabulary, how many kanji do you know, and how many hours do you study Japanese, on top of a full time job?
How many of your students have made good progress since you have known them?
Maybe because to make reasonable proficiency, a NOVA student has spent 500,000- 1,000,000 yen on lessons to reach Level 3 or so, and still has trouble with the langauge, level checks and pronunciation etc. add that to 6 years at high school, 4 years at university and you can see why they feel demoralised to learn English[/b]
So in summary: Japan is not an international country (don't expect it to be)...English is best taught by Japanese because they make the students feel more 'comfortable' (no gaijin complex)... learning English must be light, fun and frothy (whats your favorite shopping, Satomi?) unless Japanese will be scared that its too difficult.
what do you mean international country? 99% of the population speaks a foreign language, they are an island country separated from the US and Europe and they have never been invaded or colonised, except for 5 years after world war II . Why should the majority of Japanese speak English to each other when the common language is Japanese? Are you imposing your ethnocentric beliefs on them (its like Japan tried to get Koreans and Taiwanese to speak only Japanese during the war and look what happened)
...I honestly do not know. Why is the level of English so low? ... and will it ever change?
Because they have a dysfunctional education system where they study English for up to 10 years and school without needing to hear the spoken language, teachers who can not speak the language and an emphasis on rote memorisation. if you studied grammar and literature for ten years with a teacher who could not speak Japanese, in order to pass an entrance exam, do you think you would be able to speak japanese? I think not.
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| is it that until you speak 100% fluent English that you do not want to make mistakes? |
In part, yes. This is a Japanese way of thinking. Same for many other Asian cultures, too.
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| Is it that Japan is not an international country (like say USA or US) and does not need to speak English? |
I think you will find that Japan probably considers itself an "international country". It has the second highest economy, doesn't it? There are other aspects of its culture that still carry over from the isolationist days, but Japan is learning just how much English is really necessary, especially with the Internet so commonly used. The need is there, but reacting to it takes so long because of various cultural factors (the group mentality, the "old boy network" still in power in companies/government, for example).
| Quote: |
| Is learning English a hobby like pottery or flower arranging...not really a tool for business communication? |
In part, yes. Japanese study English for 6 years in JHS/HS, but the type of English they study is not conversational. It is highly arcane stuff meant for passing college entrance exams. And, the majority of their teachers don't speak well enough to give them oral communication lessons.
What they learn/study in conversation schools is done for pleasure in some cases (housewives intending to go abroad, for example) or for some rare businessmen who need better English to get a promotion or overseas job assignment.
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| English is best taught by Japanese because they make the students feel more 'comfortable' (no gaijin complex) |
No. In my opinion, the Japanese do not think this way. For one thing, why else would they have such a lucrative eikaiwa business going on, and one that hires inexperienced, untrained people whose only credentials are being native English speakers?
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| How many of you have been pulled up by your boss because, after the lesson, one of the students said the lesson was' chotto muzakashi...'? |
At the eikaiwa, extremely rarely. Maybe twice in over 3 years.
At the high school, never, unless I botched preparing for it.
(Actually, the boss never made any such remarks in my HS. It was just a feeling I got from students.)
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| Why is the level of English so low? ... and will it ever change? |
See my first and third points.
Will it change? Who can say? Not likely very soon. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Why is the level of English so low!? |
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| matador wrote: |
Is it that Japan is not an international country (like say USA or US) and does not need to speak English?
In the US they want everyone to speak English and do everything the American way. Many Americans do not speak a foreign language, while many Europeans speak four or five. Hardly what i would call international.
Is learning English a hobby like pottery or flower arranging...not really a tool for business communication?
Students will learn English if they have particular goal or motivation. My students study English becuase they need credits to graduate. High school students study English so they can get into a university. Some students study becuase they have a foreign boyfriend or want to do homestay or study abroad. 80% of students studying at NOVA have no particular purpose except "I like English" or " I want to talk to foreigners"
How many of your students have made good progress since you have known them?
Very few but thats because they
1. are English majors (at university and enjoy studying the language
2. They study very hard, like every day and not just once a week
3. they have a particular goal in mind.
4. they are good at learning languages, and have learnt what it means to study a language, while the majority just muddle along once a week at NOVA.
So in summary: Japan is not an international country (don't expect it to be)...English is best taught by Japanese because they make the students feel more 'comfortable' (no gaijin complex)... learning English must be light, fun and frothy (whats your favorite shopping, Satomi?) unless Japanese will be scared that its too difficult.
after six years of rote learning, grammar rules, memorising vocabulary (whats "consternation" in Japanese?) and teachers who lecture to the them in Japanese in a class of forty students, what do you suggest? More chalk and talk? More lecturing (by a teacher who has never studied how to teach language properly)? More tests and homework? [b]
How many of you have been pulled up by your boss because, after the lesson, one of the students said the lesson was' chotto muzakashi...'?
[b] Well obviously the lesson was too difficult for them, you werent teaching at their acquisition level, or you didnt explain or demonstrate it clearly enough? Some students are just lazy and just dont get it, but in the main most of my students understand by the end of the lesson, and you keep hammering it home until they do. If the lesson is too difficult for them, you have to take another look at what you are doing wrong.
Oh no! You mean the student had to actually learn something!?! Well, ooo-la-la! You mean the teacher stopped acting like a clown (..but they like that...its genki!) and actually tried to teach you how to use English?
If being a clown means that the students get it then you are doing your job. Its when you are behaving like a clown and they dont get it that you have a problem. Who taught you how to teach properly?
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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bearcat
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 3:57 am Post subject: |
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The reasons why English ability in Japan is so poor is not any one single factor. Infact it is a recipe of factors... some mentioned above.
First would be the passivity in the way things are learned in the education system of Japan coupled with the focus of education prior to(and even within?) university to be testing oriented as well.... something that Japan owes a bit to past chinese history for perhaps.
Since children are thus groomed to learn and progress into adulthood with this sort of mindset, it becomes entrenched/steeped within the cultural psyche with many other aspects of the lives of the members of this culture. If one is conditioned to think, act, learn, live in one manner, then it becomes rather difficult to alter.
Living Language cannot be learned wholly passively. As well a living language learned requires the context of the culture that uses the language. Those things do not (yet?) exist in Japan.
And frankly though some may disagree, English as a communicative living language in Japan is exactly equal in priority to French or most other languages in the US. Some might disagree showing the extent to which English is taught and is a commodity to be bought and sold in Japan; but the evidence of the priority to use the language as a communication tool in everyday living with other human beings is virtually non existant... just as the other languages in the US.
___________________
So the culture doesn't learn English to use it as many in other countries do.
Is that wrong?
I've come to consider to not be so. The culture has created this environment of priority. The culture created manner in which English is learned and its use within the culture. And as time has shown previously and will in the future, the use and priority of it changes. You see more English now than you did 30 years ago in the culture. There have been changes to the amount or manner in which English is learned.
It will continue to change. But for now, this is the manner inwhich the culture desires the language.
Comparing its use/abilitly level/or priority with cultures outside of Japan has a rather weak relevance. |
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