Job Discussion Forums

[Baozi man]

Lobster, Since we are all in this together, rather than insult each other, for which I apologize, Let me explain why I described the post as "dumb":

Primarily because you said that people such as myself are passing moral judgments about China based on our cultural experience. I reject the idea that cultural experience or background is an adequate stick by which to make moral judgments about another country, people, and so forth.

My cultural experience has little to do with the moral judgments I make about China. Appreciation of the truth, for example, may be absorbed by a culture but it is derived from religious experience, not culture. It so happens that most Western countries were heavily influenced by the Church. The predominant social institution in the Western world was the Church, for nearly 1000 years; consequently, the culture was heavily influenced by moral imperatives derived from the church.

Although these imperatives are reflected in the culture, they did not originate with the culture.

Cultures change, moral imperatives do not. The ideal relationship remains that of a monogamous heterosexual relationship, regardless of cultural changes to the contrary. Heterosexual marriage did not spring from culture, it sprang from the practices of antiquity going back to Adam and Eve. Noah, for example had one wife and three sons.

The idea of truth telling is fairly common in Western countries. When I speak to people from Sweden, Germany, or Holland, I expect that they are telling me the truth. I can't do that with Chinese people. They are liars. They lie when the truth makes more sense than the lie.

The culture reflects the bad character of the people. And my "judgment" that lying is less noble than truth telling has nothing to do with culture. It is a spiritual value. Regardless of the culture, the truth is better than the lie.

[choudoufu]

[7969]

[Lobster]

Apology accepted and appreciated. People's perceptions of a place are also shaped by personal experiences. Certainly people who have been burnt here in one way or another are going to have a negative view of a place. Because I have had few bad experiences here, and many good ones, I tend to have warm feelings for China and its people. I usually think about people in terms of individuals rather than groups. I don't feel I get lied to any more here than at home.

RED

[Baozi man]

7969, Apologies for using the inclusive term "we" in reference to you. You know who your friends are.

I suppose we all choose the path we walk in life. If I choose to confront the person who calls me "laowai" with a snicker and you choose to laugh it off, or go home and drink, or whatever, I guess it would be wrong to suppose that the term "we" should refer to us.

A few weeks ago, a man roughly shoved me from behind and got in my face because I had been stopped by a security guard at a gate. I hit him in the face with my umbrella. I was prepared to do plenty more had he not scurried away like a rat. People react to physical assaults in different ways. For me, my responses are not so much a plan as a reflex. Perhaps your natural reflex is to cower, or laugh.

People cut in front of me in line, depending on my mood, they are going to get tripped, stepped on, possibly shoved aside. Maybe I will spit on their luggage. I hope I can change and become a peace loving, friendly person. Until then, I lift weights and recall the many years of martial arts training I had.

I admire you if you can truly laugh off physical abuse or racist insults. I can't, at least not yet. I know another FT who got into physical altercations twice in 5 years. He was partially blinded in one eye as a result and eventually expelled from the country. Had he been willing to "eat doo doo," he might have remained. For him that wasn't an option. His self respect and values were more important to him than teaching in China.

I was recently talking with a British woman about a situation reported to me by an Asian. It sounded rather fantastic. The Brit [is that racist?] dismissed the story by saying "She's lying."

Of course, at first I thought, why would she lie?; however, as I thought about it some more, it seemed entirely possible that the lady was lying. I'm not the only one who characterizes people here as liars. Comb through the threads. You'll find that numerous individuals agree

You have lived here several years and had a different experience that I have. That's fine. If the people where you live are not liars, that's good to hear; however, that is not the case here.

I, for one, would be extremely unlikely to marry a Chinese woman simply because they lie about their families, their finances, their life situation, their children, and so forth. They lie about their feelings, their needs, their boyfriends, you name it, they lie.

Most of them would steal from their husbands as well. I don't want to share a bed with a person like that. That's me. Whatever you are is your own affair.

[roadwalker]

I can't speak for the nicknames given test takers, although the names sound plausible to me. I can add anecdotal evidence that this is likely a common phenomenon. I can think of at least two instances where students confided in me that a teacher had asked them to take an English exam in the teacher's place. I didn't know who the teachers were, or what exactly the exams were testing, other than they were in English. And I don't know whether the teachers asked them because they were lazy, busy or afraid of being out of compliance with their contract for not being accredited with the exam, though I suspected the last.

The funny thing was that the students "confided in" me rather in a nonchalant way. Actually they were both times telling me they were busy because they had to take an exam for a teacher. Q:"What about the ID check?" A:"My teacher's colleague will check it and ok it." Both times I told the students how disgusted and disappointed I was, and got them to promise not to take any more exams for people. (Did they stop?) I was less upset that cheating was so blatant than the fact that the students were being abused and could be scapegoated out of the sense of not disappointing their superiors (teachers.)

[igorG]

[Opiate]

[Miles Smiles]

"...The predominant social institution in the Western world was the Church, for nearly 1000 years; consequently, the culture was heavily influenced by moral imperatives derived from the church.

Although these imperatives are reflected in the culture, they did not originate with the culture..."


I think a lot of knowledgeable people might disagree with your perception of culture. You miss a lot in your argument.

[Opiate]

I once tried to define culture...I failed. Culture can not be wrapped up in words, it is more than that. To me anyway. Maybe I just suck at words. /shrug

FWIW, I fucking hate organized religion and the shitty legacies it has left behind in many cultures. There is not a single thing I despise more than organized religion. But that is for another thread.

[steve b]

I would dearly love to know why, with so much vitriol being posted against China and its people, those doing so are still here?

[Lobster]

One may assert that a system becomes bent due to the actions of the people within it, or due to the actions of those who create and maintain it. If the system is indeed bent, as seems to be the common perception here, then it goes without saying that there is no shame in gaming the system. Does this make the people who game the unfair system immoral, or merely pragmatic?

A truly skilled card player is unwelcome in a casino, because his skills overcome the rigged house odds. He's not actually cheating. A preson who counts cards is considered to be cheating the casino. This for many is questionable. A person who jams a slot machine or has a computer linkup is certainly cheating. Some may consider it a form of robbery. But how do most people react to the news of a casino being cheated? Probably with quiet laughter and a sense of "it serves them right". Is this a poor analogy?

RED

[dean_a_jones]

[igorG]

[The Great Wall of Whiner]