Job Discussion Forums

[Andy123]

I have my ticket and the boxes have been shipped out. I have lived in Asia for more than 9 plus years with a majority of that time in Vietnam. It is time to leave. Most of the "old timers" I know have left, plan to leave and some unfortunately must stay but want to leave but they have no where to go i.e. no real credentials, money, legal problems, etc.

I arrived during the "Golden Years" and enjoyed a standard of living working as a teacher that most successful businessman enjoy. It was heaven. I will miss the food, my motorbikes, 95% of my students and my Viet friends. I never lived in the "foreign" areas and most of my friends were Viets. I wanted to live the "real" Vietnam and I did.

Vietnam has changed much and its westernization/globalization has taken the charm out of this wonderful country. The notoriety and respect for foreigners is gone.

All of my foreign and Viet friends admit that there now exists an open bias, aggressive and rudeness towards foreigners. What surprises me is how open and aggressive it has become. My friends and I have experienced far too many episodes on a daily or weekly basis over the last two years. Please let me repeat that all my Viet friends also agree and are genuinely embarrassed when they witness or hear of these episodes. They have stopped saying long ago "this is Viet Nam you must accept."

I have worked for several "real" international schools, large prestigious language schools and some real scum holes and in the past I was paid well, treated with the utmost professional respect, experienced excellent Viet staff interaction and truly was grateful for such treatment.

The last couple of years most of my contracts have not always been honored, money is often skimmed from pay checks and noticeable open hostility between Viet staff/ management and teachers. I sometimes wonder if many of these managers have a soul or are former members of Pol Pot.

Bi-weekly trips to the supermarkets are nightmares. My friends and I agree that it has become some sort of power game to have some Viets go out of their way to cause problems to assert their power when there are no real issues. This is Vietnam and a foreigner will always loose the fight. I understand that but there appears to be no sense of fair play or wanting of "repeat business".

Regarding pollution and traffic I do not need to say anything. Just four weeks ago I literally saw another young man loose his life after a truck hit him. Honestly, I lost count of the dead bodies and have become callous to it. Granted traffic accidents are much higher in many western countries but the "in your face" and the "that could have been me" has become too much.

Over the last year and a half I know of several people who experienced physical attacks and/or robberies. In all fairness some probably deserved it but the frequency of these incidents is clearly up.

Life is too short to live with such daily conflicts. The thrill is over. Time to plan for a real future.

I wish I could say I will miss Sai Gon but what I will miss are my Viet friends.

[just noel]

[bobpen]

Excellent post. Have been in Asia for a little over 8 years, about 4 1/2 of those in VN. At present not in Vietnam, in a neighboring country. Left VN about two years ago.

Interesting you use the term "golden years," was just thinking of that a week or so back when I was reviewing my passport. Actually in my view I never thought Vietnam was great, even early on it always had a hectic, rough side to it, but back then ('05, for example), schools needed teachers, and when you strode up to the front lobby in a nice shirt and tie, staff often stopped what they were doing and gleamed over to greet you. Even while I didn't think it an easy life before, there was always one nice thing throughout the day to make a person feel good inside -- someone holding a door open, or a walk through a supermarket with people glancing over looking intrigued. There was still a bit of appreciation and simpleness to it.

You mentioned missing Vietnam (or not missing it). Several months after I'd left I perhaps got one or two quick pangs to revisit, but other than that, nothing. Don't miss the mess, the in your face greed, and so on. There are perhaps about a dozen students that I miss and it's too bad I'll never see them again, but actually for all the others, not at all.

That's also another good sub-topic brought up -- after being in Asia for years, there isn't much to go back home to. Perhaps it's a bit of a warning to newer folks. If you're just doing 6 months or a year, it shouldn't be a major problem. But longer than that, and you risk burning the bridge behind you.

[sigmoid]

[bludevil96]

Andy123,

I wish you much luck and many of your students will look back and remember who you are. It sounded like your candle has burned out and I'm glad you see it that way. I think you enjoyed being a novelty and expects special treatment because you're a foreigner. If the rudeness exists only toward foreigners then you might have a point. However, that's not the case and from my experience in 4.5 years, we get it less than the natives.

[snollygoster]

After 9 years I also moved to another country. Missed a lot about Vietnam, the good the bad and the ugly.
Recently returned for a holiday and got back into the old familiar feel again pretty quickly. Was favourably impressed by a few of the new bells and whistles however, especially the fast turnaround at the new airport in Saigon. Same stern faces on the Immigration folks however- same old statue faces.
Sad to see my lovely big dog I gave to a neighbour who admired him so much for his bravery was turned into butcher shop material-yes by the trusted neighbour who obviously admired him for more than his bravery, loyalty etc. Lost 2 good friends and a lot of faith in the Mr Average Viet.

Overall however, it was easy to settle in to the familiar ways and appreciate the locals. Felt like coming home in a way. Thinkling about that possibility now.

[Jbhughes]

Good luck with wherever your destination is (mind sharing where that may be?)

Thanks for your help with various matters. Life here is so devoid of information about anything that experience from those that have been here for awhile and been through all sorts of processes is invaluable.

I hope you can stay on the board like Snollygoster and share your thoughts about life on the other side, it's very interesting for those of us left here gazing over at the grass and wondering how green it is.

How did you get your money out and liquidise various assets out of interest?

[ajc19810]

Thanks Andy,

This is the truest and best post I have read for quite some time. I wish you all the best.

I don't miss Vietnam at all, but I miss those 'golden years, in fact i wish they never ended.

[Sudz]

Good post!

After living in HCMC for 7 years, I've noticed some of the changes that you guys have mentioned. I'm a little curious though about the open aggression that some of you guys have mentioned. Might I have an example or two? Not debating at all, but I'm genuinely curious. I do get looks of death from time to time, but have only had one or two somewhat heated arguments over my last 7 years here (one was in Hanoi).

Worth noting: this post is coming from someone who speak a pathetic amount of Vietnamese for someone who's been here for 7 years, so I'm oblivious to most of the dialogue around me.

[LettersAthruZ]

Farewell, Andy! I've enjoyed several of your posts and found that you, like a few others, do possess a decent understanding of this nation and the actions/reactions of its people.

As far as making arrogant assumptions like how you enjoyed the special treatment and such by the locals, well, you know the score here whilst some others haven't even opened their eyes to look at the scoreboard.....

....agreed - the golden age for ESL teaching in Viet Nam is gone, Daddy, gone! Hell, just last month, one of my friends in The Cities of The North told me about a contract gig he did with an agency that did the supplying of T�y English Teacher's to a few of that city's High Schools and how he got dumped at the end of his contract (they kept telling him to stay on ONE MORE WEEK whilst the negotiated a contract for the NEXT six months) and on his last teaching day, they asked him if (what was OBVIOUSLY) his replacement could observe!

He was making reasonable money (circa 400,000VND per classroom hour) and he got replaced by...........

...................

...................

...a nineteen year-old girl from COLUMBIA!!

God's honest truth!

It just seems over the past three years or so in Viet Nam, there has been this absolutely stunning quality-be-dammed race to the bottom in terms of getting thee instructor who WILL work for as little money as possible! This benefits the schools (and these same schools HAVE NOT dropped the monthly enrollment fees for the students) and the websites these schools utilise to advertise for their latest-greatest 200,000VND/hour Wunderkid!

I'm seeing more flotsam and backpackers float into Ha Noi and Hai Phong than I ever have in the past five years up here....

Bobpen - ".....the in your face greed...."

WHHAAAA?? In Viet Nam??? Noooooo.....

[mark_in_saigon]

I feel that this original post is very important and informative. I imagine it will engender a lot of response, and I hope that the response will be of a constructive nature, that is, will offer honest opinions rather than trying to belittle the other members as has been a common response in the recent past. Fortunately, I notice some more civility lately, so I would hope that trend will continue.

I feel that OP�s post is largely accurate. However, I think that people here, or planning on coming over can still find ways to cope, to thrive and to be happy. But, it seems pretty obvious that the experience is degrading, and equally obvious the direction it is going.

[[email protected]]

That was a great and informative post Andy. I wish you the best of luck in the future and though I don't really know you, Vietnam is surely losing someone great.

This is my third time coming back to VN and I have been here for a total of 2 years. Fortunately, I haven't experienced what you did and I am afraid sooner or later I will. My time here has been blessed. I have been able to meet good people, worked at an honest school, and finally have found a great position I am very happy with.

You are right as far as the pollution and traffic, nothing needs to be said about that. I would like to mention the other thing that bothers me. The non-common sense things that people do here. I just don't get it. For example: when you are going through the door and someone is behind you, hold the door open for them, or don't butt in front of the line. Vietnam has improved greatly when it comes to having materials, but its social skills still have a long way to go.

It's too bad that the locals are treating foreigners like you in a bad way. I do think that the blame goes to those teachers that come here thinking they will get a free ride. I have seen it for myself where the schools will hire someone totally unqualified, treat them well, and that teacher doesn't really give a f*#! and has problems getting along with the local teachers. That doesn't really put foreigners in a good light considering they are also making much more money than most people at the school.

For all those who consider coming here, I would advise that if you do, please don't do what so many I have seen done. Many people come here and they lower their standards, acting in ways they would never do at home because they think that it's acceptable here and no one cares. The people who come here and do that actually end up acting like the bad locals the OP is talking about. VN doesn't need teachers like that. They need teachers like Andy who will keep up their standards from the west and teach it to the students here so that it helps the society as a whole.

As far as my journey here, I am quite sure I will go through the bad at some point. I eventually would like to go home. I hope that I can go home on a good note. Best of luck to you Andy!

[bobpen]

[inhanoi]

Reading all of this reminds me of how generally happy I've been here, a few mishaps along the way, but overall successful, satisfied and gratified. So a meaningful and rewarding experience is possible, with a little luck, and some tolerance and patience.

[Mattingly]