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sidjameson
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 629
Location: osaka
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 Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Bindair my girlfriend says that my sexual behavior is very relevant to my performance.  |
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kimo
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 668
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| Is it really a question of right or wrong? Or is it how we're perceived by our hosts? My wife, who is Chinese, found the site in question through these pages and called the site's owner 'a pervert'. A few other Chinese I have met would probably call for a lynch mob. |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 9:47 am Post subject: |
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I don't think anyone is saying he isn't a pervert.
The issue that we really seem to be dealing with is that some people consider a teacher to have to live up to codes of ethics and morals and some people are saying that teaching is a job just like any other and thusly should not have any ethical or moral codes subscribed to it.
Sorry that was such a long sentence. I think I'm becoming Nathaniel Hawthorne.
Speaking of puritans. In New England up until the 1920's there was a prescribed moral code on teachers, well women teachers. She had to be single. She had to abstain from drinking alcohol. She could not become pregnant or fall under suspicion of having had sex. She had to return home before dark. She could not be seen in the carriage of a man unless he was her father or brother. If she broke any of these rules she was fired with no option of due process.
I'm guessing that no one here would think that these moral codes are acceptable, but at that time these codes followed the prevailing thought of what was ethically and morally acceptable for teachers.
For the above reason I'm not too fond of projecting my own moral and ethical guidelines on others and abhore the thought of others thinking they ought to do so.
Professional and ethical are different words with different meanings.
Is the teacher being scrutinized ethical? No
Is he professional? I don't know.
Is he a pervert? It seems so.
Leeroy and Bindair Dundat, I'm in agreement with both your posts.
I'm sure I'll come to regret making this one. |
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Bindair Dundat
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| sidjameson wrote: |
| Bindair my girlfriend says that my sexual behavior is very relevant to my performance. |
That's not what she told me! 
BD |
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rj
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 159
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Bindair Dundat wrote: |
| rj wrote: |
| For those who think that there is nothing wrong with a teacher's primary goal being to bang their students, would you also agree that it is acceptable to mention that during your interview? |
Although I am not by any stretch of the imagination ashamed of my sexual behavior, I don't discuss it in interviews. Do you discuss yours?
Neither do I discuss my politics, my religious beliefs, my preference in underwear colors, or how many mites I dug out of my dog's ears yesterday. Some things are just not relevant to one's performance.
BD |
My sexual behavior has never come up in an interview. Though I would imagine the question "why do you want to teach in China (or any other country)?" is a relatively common one in EFL. For me, my sexual behavior isn't relevant to answering that question. If my primary goal was sex with my students however, I think it would be relevant since that would be the answer to the question. |
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Bindair Dundat
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| rj wrote: |
My sexual behavior has never come up in an interview. Though I would imagine the question "why do you want to teach in China (or any other country)?" is a relatively common one in EFL. For me, my sexual behavior isn't relevant to answering that question. If my primary goal was sex with my students however, I think it would be relevant since that would be the answer to the question. |
Oh, I see, you are suggesting that Whitjohn's primary goal is sex with students, and so you think that makes it relevant.
*My* primary goal is feeding,clothing, and housing my family, so I suppose you might think I am remiss in not bringing that up in an interview - ? If I focus the conversation on the students, the job, and the culture and leave my family in the background, I would be answering dishonestly?
Let's cut to the chase here, my friend. It is considered professional to present oneself in a good light when interviewing. Total honesty on the part of either the applicant or the employer would be misplaced.
Teacher: "I want to work here because I need the money."
Employer: "I want teachers who will accept as little money as possible."
BD |
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rj
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 159
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Bindair Dundat wrote: |
Oh, I see, you are suggesting that Whitjohn's primary goal is sex with students, and so you think that makes it relevant.
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I have no idea what kind of teacher whitjohn is, he may be the best teacher in the world. I'm sure his blog was the inspiration for this thread but despite his name coming up, he isn't the specific topic of discussion. The OP was regarding
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If your principle goal is to poke your students, you are not fit for a career in teaching. |
whitjohn's name was never mentioned in the OP.
Since I don't know whitjohn or what his goals regarding teaching are, I don't think he's relevant to the topic. Sex with students being a primary goal for becoming a teacher is what we are discussing. Do I think how one would answer an interview question regarding why they want to teach in a foreign country relevant to the topic? Yes, I do.
I have told employers that I am changing jobs because the money is better. Is that unprofessional? I don't think so. Perhaps it is in EFL? It's quite common in nursing to change jobs based on the money since working conditions and patients aren't much different regardless of where you go.  I've always been honest in interviews and I've never had one and not gotten the job so I can't imagine I'm doing something wrong during the process.
I'm rather confident that employers assume the people they hire are looking to make money to provide for themselves and their families. If someone, not an employer, asked why you plan to teach in China (or anywhere else) would you say because that is how you can provide for your family? From what I understand, most EFL teachers don't make a lot of money but do this for other reasons. You may work because you have to, but why did you choose teaching and why did you choose a specific country?
I have no idea what your qualifications are, but I know I'm not the only person on this forum who is qualified to have a better paying job at home than what I'll make teaching in China. Teaching will help pay the bills while I'm doing it, but the salary isn't what makes being an EFL teacher appealing. Perhaps it is the only thing you are capable of doing. I will happily concede that while the salary may be similar for an EFL teacher in China and someone flipping burgers in the US, the quality of life on that salary would be much better in China. If the only reason you became an EFL teacher was because the only thing you have going for you employment wise is that you are a native English speaker, then I guess the money is your primary goal.
However, even if money is your primary goal would you be averse to people knowing that? Would you lie if your employer asked if your primary reason for wanting the job was financial? I think most people are fine with others not assuming they are independently wealthy but perhaps you are unique in that. I don't think most people would be as honest if their primary reason for wanting a job was access to students for sexual purposes. My question is, if it's true and there is nothing wrong with it, why wouldn't it be acceptable to acknowledge that in an interview when an employer asks?
Perhaps because
| Bindair Dundat wrote: |
| It is considered professional to present oneself in a good light when interviewing. |
And such behavior is not considered professional? That such a motive is a negative reflection and not showing yourself in a good light? |
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Bindair Dundat
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| rj wrote: |
I have no idea what kind of teacher whitjohn is, he may be the best teacher in the world. I'm sure his blog was the inspiration for this thread but despite his name coming up, he isn't the specific topic of discussion. |
Oh, okay. I assumed that this was about him.
| rj wrote: |
| Sex with students being a primary goal for becoming a teacher is what we are discussing. |
I see. But that topic didn't come out of nowhere. How do we know that sex with students is a primary goal for anyone? I've been seeing and hearing criticism of people who have sex with their students for years, but I'm not aware of ever having met ANYONE for whom it seemed to be a primary objective. I have known people who have indulged themselves from time to time, I have known several people (male and female) who have married their students, and I even knew one gay man who went way beyond the bounds of discretion in his pursuit of his students, but I can't say anyone I've ever worked with has struck me as being in the teaching business primarily for the access to sex.. Have you? Where has this notion come from?
| rj wrote: |
| I have told employers that I am changing jobs because the money is better. Is that unprofessional? |
I'm not in China, and I never will be, because the money's not there. In my territory (the Middle East), employers do not want to hear that you're chasing the buck. THEY generally consider it unprofessional. I think the ability to put on a good act is generally considered an aspect of professionalism by both admins and teachers in those circles.
| rj wrote: |
| It's quite common in nursing to change jobs based on the money since working conditions and patients aren't much different regardless of where you go. |
You're a nurse, or a teacher? I don't know what the culture of teaching is like in China, but in the ME you put on a face, period. I know that this is not necessary in Eastern Europe, where I've also worked, or in Mexico, but in the ME if you want a top-shelf job you walk their walk and talk their talk. Incidentally, sex with students is generally not an issue in the ME, except sometimes between female teachers and male students, or between male teachers and male students. You just don't find male teachers chasing female students unless they want an immediate ride to the airport.
| rj wrote: |
| I'm rather confident that employers assume the people they hire are looking to make money to provide for themselves and their families. |
Yes, that's the assumption in the ME, too, but it's pretty much a buyer's market for the good jobs. I get the impression that just about anyone can get hired in China, as in Korea - yes?
| rj wrote: |
| From what I understand, most EFL teachers don't make a lot of money but do this for other reasons. You may work because you have to, but why did you choose teaching and why did you choose a specific country? |
I chose teaching because I liked it and I wanted to travel. When I started out, I was happy with working for room and board. Now, however, I have expensive responsibilities and more expensive goals than I once did. So, I go where the money is. I like the cultures of the ME, but I wouldn't work there cheap.
| rj wrote: |
| I have no idea what your qualifications are, but I know I'm not the only person on this forum who is qualified to have a better paying job at home than what I'll make teaching in China. |
Well, China and the ME are two different animals, obviously. Most people I meet working in the ME are banking money hand over fist (socking away $20,000 per year is no big deal, and you don't have to take time away from working on your tennis game to do it) and living quite well.
| rj wrote: |
| However, even if money is your primary goal would you be averse to people knowing that? |
Off the record while sitting at the bar, not at all. In a job interview, it just isn't good form.
| rj wrote: |
| Would you lie if your employer asked if your primary reason for wanting the job was financial? |
I don't expect I'll ever hear that question during a job interview in the ME. If I do, I don't know what I'll say. I'm not generally intimidated during interviews, but I know the rules of the game.
| rj wrote: |
| I don't think most people would be as honest if their primary reason for wanting a job was access to students for sexual purposes. My question is, if it's true and there is nothing wrong with it, why wouldn't it be acceptable to acknowledge that in an interview when an employer asks? |
Obviously, what I think is okay is not necessarily what a prospective employer may think is okay. Your question is a little like, "If you didn't steal the money, why did you run from the police?" The answer is that when someone has power over you, you have to have great trust in that person in order to be honest with him. And beyond that, there is the probability that any sane employer, given two equally qualified job candidates, will choose the one whose motivation and skills most closely match those of the position. Someone who is there to chase tail is probably not going to be as good for the job as someone who is there to refine his teaching skills, delve more deeply into the language, or pursue other professional goals.
| rj wrote: |
Perhaps because
| Bindair Dundat wrote: |
| It is considered professional to present oneself in a good light when interviewing. |
And such behavior is not considered professional? That such a motive is a negative reflection and not showing yourself in a good light? |
I don't think that one's sexual proclivities necessarily have anything to do with one's teaching ability or professional demeanor, but obviously not everyone is as open-minded on this point as I am. Therefore, I'll add to what I said in the preceding paragraph by emphasizing that if I want the job, I have to give the employer what he wants to see . There are a lot of non-sexual behaviors (worshipping the devil, playing the harp with one's toes, staying up late every night to scan the skies for extra-terrestrials) that are harmless but would be alarming to a potential employer.
Now if I were talking about a few-hundred-dollar a month job in China (is that what they pay?) and there were ten such jobs available in the town in which I was living (which is the impression I get about the market in China), I wouldn't worry about it. But I'm talking about yearly packages that for me come to over 50,000 dollars tax-free (they pay you more if you have a family than if you don't) along with the incredible cultural perks of being in the ME; there is ample competition for these jobs. You bet I want to look sharp, and I'm not going to talk about anything that might get anybody too upset.
To clarify: There is often a difference between immoral behavior and behavior that other people don't like.
So are there really people who go into teaching primarily so they can get laid? Sounds like a lot of trouble to me.
Enjoyed reading your most recent post, BTW.
BD |
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woodersn
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 26
Location: Quepos, Costa Rica
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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This thread brings back old memories... anyone ever see that old SNL skit with Jane Curtin, Dan Akroyd, and John Belushi... 'The THING that wouldn't LEAVE'? 
Sheesh, enough of this he said, she said, never the 'tween shall meet stuff. I think it may be time to let this thread go.... 
but then my two cents usually ain't work a dime!
-Wood |
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Aramas
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 874
Location: Slightly left of Centre
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand, it's quite fun to stick one's oar in and give it a bit of a stir from time to time |
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kimo
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 668
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 8:34 am Post subject: |
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I still want to know if it might be reasonable for those of us in China to believe that there could be some sort of backlash if sites and stories such as Whitjohns continue to appear. As I stated earlier, I know several Chinese who would not be happy to happen across his page.
Another example was the thread some time back from a man inquiring about coming to China to get laid by his students under the guise of a teacher.
Might we all be painted with such strokes? And if so, what consequences could arise? No more male teachers? No more jobs for me in China?
I don't really care who a fellow lays, but discretion is not an unwise rule to follow. |
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Bindair Dundat
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| kimo wrote: |
| I still want to know if it might be reasonable for those of us in China to believe that there could be some sort of backlash if sites and stories such as Whitjohns continue to appear. |
IMO, there could be a backlash for the rest of you, but I wouldn't think that the problem has reached critical mass yet. If you really think that his behavior needs to be curtailed, you could ask some of your Chinese friends to bring it to the attention of the authorities. That would kind of be the acid test of just how bad that behavior is seen in China.
BD |
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Will.
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 783
Location: London Uk
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Sorry folks,
here we go again, another oar-stirring,
Guest of Japan said:
I don't think anyone is saying he isn't a pervert.
Guilty until proven innocent. He 'says' he has done the evil deed. His site, what we saw of it, lists photos of pretty Chinese women and comments about them. It is like a soft porn magazine, designed to tittilate. You only have his word that it is true. This does not prove perversion in any way, shape or form. This is the way he gets his kicks from telling you that he is still active,viable and a 'man who can' Is this the perversion you refer to? As you say: Is he a pervert? It seems so.
Kimo's point that we may all be painted with the same brush holds water it is not what is on the site or what the man claims to have done but what people... that means us and all the parents of the young ladies and men they entrust to our care. In 'loco parentis' does not mean shagging your students, or bragging about on a website.
The backlash is unreasonable rumour from this site.
Ok whitjohn is it? has claimed to ...blah! Is it illegal? He has webbed it all up on his site... Is it illegal? Did he do this in work time, on work machinery and equipment or in his own time on his own kit? Using the company's kit could get him fired. This does not close the site or affect the attitude of the previously mentioned 'people'.
[b]Hit the site, he wants people to know about his exploits so help him out give him some free advertising. Email/send/deliver by hand a photo with relevant details to all the English schools in town. sign it 'concerned professional' I am sure his boss would like to know about this 'teacher'. Let his employer decide. [/b]
This has an effect on all of us, well you lot in China really, your working conditions and your reputation.
This thread also links to several others on self-regulation and professionalism in the 'trade' union representation amnd professional organisations. Send a copy along to the Australian Embassy for good measure. Let's be honest, he wants people to know, you're only helping his cause...
Thanks for the input folks it goes to show that there are teachers out there who can perceive 'progression'
Kimo, I like the idea of no male teachers in China it provides a contrast with the Saudi situation. |
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Ocker
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 12:22 am Post subject: |
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FACT: Whitjohn is not a pervert.
Sleeze, yes. Pervert, no. Those women are of age.
Moron for supposedly banging his students? Of course. Keep work and play apart. Don't shit where you eat. Don't get your meat where you get your bread, etc etc.
If his women aren't students and are met out of work? Then he should feel free to bang away, if that's what he wants.
It's a sad thing that he feels the need to post about it on the internet though. |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 2:54 am Post subject: |
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According to the American Heritage Dictionary:
Pervert: One who practices sexual perversion.
Perversion: A sexual practice considered deviant.
I would think that posting pictures of your exploits on the net and crudely commenting on their assets with the intention of drawing viewers would be considered to be deviant sexual practice. Of course people interpret perversion in a myriad of ways. |
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